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 Christianity And Religion
ollie
Posted: Feb 21 2007, 08:00 PM


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Christ established His church which are the called of God through the gospel of Christ, such as should be saved. The Christ adds such as should be saved to this assemblage. Acts 2:41,47
Those that are called are given what true worship is to be, "in spirit and truth". John 4:22-24
Worship here is translated from the Greek, "proskuneo", Strong's 4252, prostrate oneself in homage, to adore, comparable to a dog licking his master's hand.

Our reasonable worship/service is our bodies presented a living sacrifice to God. Romans 12:1-2. The King James translators rendered the Greek word to do service or worship as "service" at Romans 12:1. That word being, "latreia", Strong's 2999.

Many refer to worship as religion because the King James translators and others translated the Greek word for ceremonial observance and the Jewish faith, Judaism" as "religion". My search did not find it in the old testament as "religion". Worship is not religion just because the translators chose to translate, "ceremonial observance" and "Judaism" as such in some verses. However man makes it religion. See preceding, above, for worship.

Per the KJV, "religion" is the translation for the Greek, "Ioudaismos", Strong's 2454, Judaism, the Jewish faith as used at Galatians 1:13-14

The King James translation uses the word religion to translate the Greek, "threskeia", Strong's 2356, meaning a ceremonial observance at Acts 26:5 where Paul was refering to His former self as a Pharisee and that of which he had been part.

This same Greek word, "threskeia", is translated as religion at James 1:26 where it is told that a man's religion/ceremonial observance is vain if he does not bridle what He says.

James 1:26 also refers to any man who seems religious which is a translation for, "threskos", Strong's 2357, ceremonial in worship, (demonstrative), pious

Also, "threskeia", is translated as religion at James 1:27 where we are told that pure religion/ceremonial observance "and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world".

Worship is not religion and religion is not worship. Religion is a word as defined by man to describe what man makes of the things of God. God does not make religion of His things or those of His Christ nor use such a word, in His defining, to describe or identify His things, doctrines, commandments.

ollie



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stuart shepherd
Posted: Feb 26 2007, 07:07 PM


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I have been to churches where they describe being in heaven as being at the feet of Jesus like a pet dog.
I'd rather be in hell.

Stuart Shepherd
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The Traveler
Posted: Mar 1 2007, 05:06 PM


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QUOTE (stuart shepherd @ Feb 26 2007, 07:07 PM)
I have been to churches where they describe being in heaven as being at the feet of Jesus like a pet dog.
I'd rather be in hell.

Stuart Shepherd

I think I agree with this post.

I would add from all that I know of G-d the Father and His Son Jesus Christ in relation to Lucifer (and Hell) that it is Satan (Lucifer) that intends to make "pets" of all mankind.

That G-d the Father and his Son Jesus Christ intend to make all of mankind "Children" of the most high G-d and they intend that those that officially become their disciples will eventually learn to do “all” the things they have done – no exceptions.

The Traveler
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SonofAslan
Posted: Mar 2 2007, 12:02 AM


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At least that is from the Mormon point of view. But the Bible teaches that Satan does not rule in hell, but is a fellow inmate along with the rest of those who rejected God's offer of unconditional love.
QUOTE
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where  the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.  Rev 20:10
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Ken
Posted: Mar 2 2007, 08:55 AM


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Sonofalan said:
QUOTE
“the Bible teaches that Satan does not rule in hell, but is a fellow inmate along with the rest of those who rejected God's offer of unconditional love.”

I’m curious; If God offers “unconditional” love, why are Satan others going to hell? Sounds like his love is conditional to me don’t cha think?

Peace
Ken
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The Traveler
Posted: Mar 2 2007, 12:53 PM


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QUOTE (SonofAslan @ Mar 2 2007, 12:02 AM)
At least that is from the Mormon point of view. But the Bible teaches that Satan does not rule in hell, but is a fellow inmate along with the rest of those who rejected God's offer of unconditional love.

QUOTE
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Rev 20:10



Interesting doctrine - if we continue with this idea - Who is the ruler of hell that is the "tormentor"? I thought that form the ancient scriptures, ie. the Bible, the title of Tormentor is translated as Satan.

I kind of look at Luke 22:31 to understand that Satan desires to own and dominate mankind like pets:

".... behold Satan desires to have you that he might sift you as wheat."

I am trying to make a point that such desire to have and own man is of Satan and not of G-d. That it is the desire of G-d that man be free. (See John 8:31-32)

I was not aware that this doctrine is unique to "Mormons" - thanks for your clairfication.

The Traveler
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SonofAslan
Posted: Mar 3 2007, 12:31 AM


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Traveler,

What I was referring to as being distinctly mormon was your comment about
QUOTE
"That G-d the Father and his Son Jesus Christ intend to make all of mankind "Children" of the most high G-d and they intend that those that officially become their disciples will eventually learn to do “all” the things they have done – no exceptions. "
If I am understanding this correctly, you are referring to the Mormon doctrine that faithful Mormons get to become a god and get a mother goddess and start their "own" creation with spirit children and the whole bit.

This is what I was saying was a Mormon doctrine. Please correct me if I was incorrect in my understanding of your comment.
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SonofAslan
Posted: Mar 3 2007, 12:37 AM


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Ken,

You commented:
QUOTE
I’m curious; If God offers “unconditional” love, why are Satan others going to hell? Sounds like his love is conditional to me don’t cha think?

There is no redemption for fallen angels. Christ didn't die to redeem angels only mankind.

Even if we spurn (reject) the love of God for our own selves personally, this does not make it any less unconditional in regards to His offer of it to us as human beings.
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The Traveler
Posted: Mar 4 2007, 05:28 PM


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QUOTE (SonofAslan @ Mar 3 2007, 12:31 AM)
Traveler,

What I was referring to as being distinctly mormon was your comment about 

QUOTE 
"That G-d the Father and his Son Jesus Christ intend to make all of mankind "Children" of the most high G-d and they intend that those that officially become their disciples will eventually learn to do “all” the things they have done – no exceptions. "

If I am understanding this correctly, you are referring to the Mormon doctrine that faithful Mormons get to become a god and get a mother goddess and start their "own" creation with spirit children and the whole bit.

This is what I was saying was a Mormon doctrine.  Please correct me if I was incorrect in my understanding of your comment.

There are some things that are important to the LDS (“Mormon”) faith that others find cause to differentiate and label us as unique that – for lack of a better term – amaze and astonish me. I hesitate to call it a point of doctrine as much as an attitude towards marriage and family – especially among those that claim to understand the teachings of Jesus Christ.

As we contemplate the “kingdom of G-d”, as G-d presides in time past in heaven, his kingdom as expressed on earth and then again in eternities to come – I must defend the importance of marriage and family in the mind and will of G-d. Jesus taught us concerning prayer that we should have the attitude in our prayers that those things “on earth” that pertain to G-d’s kingdom here on earth are a reflection of that which already existed for eons in G-d’s kingdom of heaven. “Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth, as it is in heaven”.

If we are to understand that marriage and family is blessed on earth with the will of G-d endorsing marriage and family as associated with his Kingdom then we must understand that such an endorsement by G-d is not idle recommendation but a reflection of G-d’s will as established forever in heaven. If Jesus is viewed as someone that did not endorse concepts of parenting and children within his kingdom then I could understand criticism of the LDS view that such concepts are to be considered part of G-d’s eternal will and plan. I not only believe that children are an inheritance of G-d – but I believe that there should accompany such concepts, attitudes of sacred honor and respect towards those that uphold such things as G-d’s eternal will.

There is also another point that I feel is most important among the teachings of Jesus Christ. That is, that the teaching that those that believe in the Christ will do all the works of Christ. I would remind those that consider Jesus’ teachings that they remember that John testified that Jesus is the word through which all things are created. Creation is a work of Christ. I believe the words of Christ that those that believe on him will, in time, do all the works as a similitude of what he has done.

Yes, I am very much astonished that such a view is unique to Mormons among Christians.

The Traveler

This post has been edited by The Traveler on Mar 4 2007, 05:30 PM
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SonofAslan
Posted: Mar 4 2007, 08:23 PM


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Hello Traveler,

Thank you for explaining your viewpoint. From my studies of Mormon doctrines, this definitely would fall under Mormon thought concerning this subject.

Thanks again,
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didache
Posted: Mar 4 2007, 09:59 PM


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QUOTE (The Traveler @ Mar 2 2007, 12:53 PM)
Who is the ruler of hell that is the "tormentor"?  I thought that form the ancient scriptures, ie. the Bible, the title of Tormentor is translated as Satan.


Actually Satan is the adversary or accuser.
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The Traveler
Posted: Mar 5 2007, 01:03 AM


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QUOTE (SonofAslan @ Mar 4 2007, 08:23 PM)
Hello Traveler,

Thank you for explaining your viewpoint. From my studies of Mormon doctrines, this definitely would fall under Mormon thought concerning this subject.

Thanks again,

I am sorry but I do not understand - Am I correct in understanding that your statement that this is unique to "Mormonism" inply that at least your brand of Christianity does not believe that families or mariage is really a part of G-d's will as related to his eternal kingdom?

The Traveler
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The Traveler
Posted: Mar 5 2007, 01:05 AM


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QUOTE (didache @ Mar 4 2007, 09:59 PM)

Actually Satan is the adversary or accuser.

That I understand. Who in your religion is the "Tormentor"?

The Traveler
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Ken
Posted: Mar 5 2007, 01:38 AM


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Sonofalan said:
QUOTE
"Even if we spurn (reject) the love of God for our own selves personally, this does not make it any less unconditional in regards to His offer of it to us as human beings."

So if we accept his "love" but neglect to follow his instructions, will he still send us to eternal tourture?

Ken
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SonofAslan
Posted: Mar 5 2007, 10:42 PM


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Hey Ken,

QUOTE
So if we accept his "love" but neglect to follow his instructions, will he still send us to eternal tourture?

I am fairly certain that you already know the answer to this based on your upbring that you have shared here before. But if a person truly accepts Christ as their Savior, there will be a change in there life and it will show the change as the result of a transformed life.
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Ken
Posted: Mar 5 2007, 11:40 PM


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I was just trying to make the point that "unconditional" love means to love no matter what the person does and it is my opinion that an eternal punishment for a short moment of crime doesn't sound like unconditional love to me but this is getting a little off the subject so maybe we should agree to disagree on this one so you guys can get back to discussing the differences between Christianity and religion

Peace
Ken
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SonofAslan
Posted: Mar 8 2007, 06:27 PM


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Hey Ken,

You commented:
QUOTE
I was just trying to make the point that "unconditional" love means to love no matter what the person does and it is my opinion that an eternal punishment for a short moment of crime doesn't sound like unconditional love to me
Well from a human point of view, I could see your reasoning on this, I also realize that you may not accept my answer as a valid one which you could accept, but human beings are the created ones here, not the Creator.

And "eternal punishment for a short moment of crime" is not the true representation of the facts. If we are honest with ourselves, we have had many moments where we have violated, outrightly broken God's moral laws, whether in thought, speech or actions, not just a moment.

The unconditional love comes into play in that God is willing to forgive a whole lifetime of "moments" where we have broken His standards and wipe our slates completely clean because of what Jesus has done for us.

Ken, just because you or I don't believe in something doesn't make it any less real if it truly is real. Case in point, if someone puts ice cream in the freezer and closes the door and then I walk up having not seen the ice cream. But they say to me, "I just put a gallon of ice cream in the freezer." Even if I choose not to believe them, my belief doesn't negate the fact that there really is ice cream in the freezer. The only real difference I see between us is that I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the "ice cream" exists.

And what if I was wrong and God does not exist, what did I lose??? I have had a rich full life, a family I love and one that loves me in return and all the wonderful times that have gone along with it. What really did I miss out on in this life?

But if I am correct, then I had a rich fulfilling life here upon this earth and I am justified of my sins in the sight of God because of Jesus and I will enjoy eternity with my family with more richness than I can imagine here on earth.

What did I lose?

Are you risking anything???
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Ken
Posted: Mar 9 2007, 12:36 AM


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Sonofalan said:
QUOTE
""eternal punishment for a short moment of crime" is not the true representation of the facts. If we are honest with ourselves, we have had many moments where we have violated, outrightly broken God's moral laws, whether in thought, speech or actions, not just a moment."

Actually when I said "short moment" I was speaking perspective; 70-75 years on Earth is just a moment when you compare it to eternity.
QUOTE
"Ken, just because you or I don't believe in something doesn't make it any less real if it truly is real. Case in point, if someone puts ice cream in the freezer and closes the door and then I walk up having not seen the ice cream. But they say to me, "I just put a gallon of ice cream in the freezer." Even if I choose not to believe them, my belief doesn't negate the fact that there really is ice cream in the freezer. The only real difference I see between us is that I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the "ice cream" exists."

Too bad you can't just open the freezer door to prove it's really there huh!
QUOTE
"And what if I was wrong and God does not exist, what did I lose??? I have had a rich full life, a family I love and one that loves me in return and all the wonderful times that have gone along with it. What really did I miss out on in this life?

But if I am correct, then I had a rich fulfilling life here upon this earth and I am justified of my sins in the sight of God because of Jesus and I will enjoy eternity with my family with more richness than I can imagine here on earth."

What if we're BOTH wrong?
QUOTE
"What did I lose?

Are you risking anything???"

Well let me put it this way; If I am wrong and God does exist, I will face him with a clear conscience knowing I did everything to the best of my ability to find him. For this God to remain hidden from me for all those years which caused me to become an Atheist and then to come out of hiding when it is too late; he would have no right to judge me harshly for doubting his existence.

That's the way I see it

Peace
Ken
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SonofAslan
Posted: Mar 9 2007, 07:16 PM


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Hi Ken,

Ok, I can accept that, even if I don't fully agree with it, but I accept that it is the way you feel concerning it. I am reminded about a passage in Romans 1, which talks directly to how you feel, in that God has revealed Himself in the witness of creation itself.
QUOTE
20 From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities ? his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God. 21 Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. The result was that their minds became dark and confused. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became utter fools instead. 23 And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people, or birds and animals and snakes. 24 So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. 25 Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen.  Romans 1:20 - 25


You said,
QUOTE
If I am wrong and God does exist, I will face him with a clear conscience knowing I did everything to the best of my ability to find him.

Ken, If I can be blunt here, in total honesty, we can't find God through our own ability. We have to come to Him on His terms. And if I may be so bold, I have shared with you, what you need to know to come into a relationship with a Father who loves you so dearly, that He has already provided for the payment to cancel all your debts and desires greatly with open arms to welcome you home in His embrace forever. Even when we don't have all the answers to everyone of our questions, if we simply ask Him, in faith, to make Himself real to you, (not as a test as to His existence) but because you want to place Him into the leadership role of your life, then eventually things will become clear and understanding will come as you explore your new relationship with Him.

Take care, my friend, till next time.....
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Ken
Posted: Mar 11 2007, 11:41 PM


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Sonofalan quotes the bible scripture Romans 1:20-25 which says nature is proof of the existence of his God.

Those scriptures are untrue. Of all the different Gods variouis people worship and attribute to the existence of nature, your God doesn't stick out of the crowd.

QUOTE
"Ken, If I can be blunt here, in total honesty, we can't find God through our own ability. We have to come to Him on His terms."

Contridiction: how do you come to something you are unable to find?
QUOTE
"And if I may be so bold, I have shared with you, what you need to know to come into a relationship with a Father who loves you so dearly"

I already knew everything you told me and it didn't work!
QUOTE
"if we simply ask Him, in faith, to make Himself real to you, (not as a test as to His existence) but because you want to place Him into the leadership role of your life, then eventually things will become clear and understanding will come as you explore your new relationship with Him."
When I was a Christian attempting to get "saved" I asked many times and it didn't work. The fact is; that which you believe will work for everyone does not.

If you are convinced it worked for you, (even though I have my doubts) that's cool and I wish you well with your God belief.

Peace
Ken
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