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Title: Getting a little crowded in here
Description: but that's a good thing


JT Metalworks - April 5, 2009 02:11 PM (GMT)
First you make a hole:

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Then your rigger shows up:
(and you park your car's at the neighbors)
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JT Metalworks - April 5, 2009 02:12 PM (GMT)
I got lucky that we didn't have to dismantle the cabinet. Ended up with about an inch of clearance:

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Tucked it under the header, and lifted it back up to put the skates under it (never did touch the garage door either):

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Then you push like hell to get it across the garage an into the shop. There were 3 of us on the back side and one up front tugging and steering. No pics there for obvious reasons. :)

And then you park it in it's spot and take the skates out:

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:D

It looks a lot closer to the wall than it really is. There's at least 2' between the cabinet and wall for access and the ability to open the cabinet doors on that side. Nothing hits at full travel, and I can still bar feed my collet closer on the voest - which was the general goal.

I won't be making chips with it for another week or so, since all the turret holders are 7/8" or larger and I don't have any shanks that size. Should have new power wiring over to that wall by mid week, and the vfd will be here thursday

egon - April 5, 2009 03:37 PM (GMT)
OK; It looks nice, but what is it? :rolleyes:

What does it do? :o

Did we see a electrical wall fixture that was not level?

And oil stains on the floor! :lol:

Can you qualify for some free money for that thing? :unsure:

Steel Rack? :lol:

Are you prepared to have Uncle Franz move in to help utilize the equipment? :blink:

storts1 - April 5, 2009 04:33 PM (GMT)
Looks Good!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you have enough power to run it??????????? We all knew it was a matter of time till CNC,Good Luck!!!!, Looks Sharp!!!!


Now what Egon said,,those did look like fresh oil spots,so thats means Jim was making $$$$$$$$$$$ :D :D :D :D :D :D :D


PS,Egon,second to last Pic,,what was that a rigger,or a Plumber????????? :o :P :unsure:

JT Metalworks - April 5, 2009 04:49 PM (GMT)
I never checked my duplex boxes for level. lol The studs in the wall are all perfectly vertical, but the boxes are plastic and they tweak when you nail `em. Can't see the thing now anyway. :P

What it is: a Nakamura Tome TMC3 9x23" OD turning capacity cnc lathe. The swing over the bed is something like 24-28" (not a dimension I'm all that interested in), but the turret has a limited ability to remove itself from the vicinity of the work when you get bigger than about 12". Not to say it can't be fooled with some creative tool holders (like a "U" shaped one that moves up into the area of the turret), but the rated capacities are more easily definable for conversations sake. My manual lathe has about the same swing over the saddle, so the Nakamura could be compared to a 16" engine lathe in terms of long work capacity.

The oil on the floor is from my headstock on the Voest needing the cover threads repaired. It's not sealed right now, so it weeps a little when you run higher rpms. Lets just say I'm not garage urinal material, because I don't lose any sleep over the leaks. There's leaks in that spot, over by the other wall where it was originally parked, and there will be new ones where it sits right now after I power it up for the first time in that spot. I'm not at all concerned.

I've been meaning to make a material rack, but I don't have the stock for the uprights yet. What you see in that corner is about 1/3 of it.

Franz wouldn't move in, he doesn't seem to keen on working. :D

JT Metalworks - April 5, 2009 05:17 PM (GMT)
Jack, the Nak uses 63A at full power (so high range on the transmission, 4500rpm, and then both X and Z axes in rapid traverse while also taxing the hydraulic system), but that's a 3ph rating. My guess is that it's just about 90A on single under those conditions. I'll be putting in another sub panel on the south wall opposite the 100A panel on the north wall where the welders are plugged in. This one will be surface mounted conduit likely running right next to the air lines if I have enough space on the super strut it's attached to. If not, I still need to shorten the one air line leg next to the heater so it doesn't come down so close to a 30A outlet, and once that's down there's only one other support that would need to be swapped out to install longer strut to run the conduit on. I'll probably deal with that this afternoon.

I got a sweet deal on the machine, as the tool holders it came with are worth $1500, and the 10" Kitagawa chuck that's in it is worth at least a grand, then the two collet noses are worth some coin as well and I only paid 4K for the works. :D

The interesting back story on this machine, is that it came out of the headquarters of a major US defense contractor. I'm wondering what it has made and where that stuff currently is... Missiles, satellites, star wars? Being an `82 it could've been any or all of that. Kinda cool to think my lathe made missile parts aimed at Russia.

Franzę - April 5, 2009 05:36 PM (GMT)
Kid machine.

Dern kids ain't smart enough to know which handle to twist to make a part so they gotta haul in a machine that contains a video game to make the part for em.

Sheesh, what has this country come to?

JT Metalworks - April 5, 2009 05:53 PM (GMT)
If I wanted the cnc to do all my work, I wouldn't have put the two manual machines in the same "cell."

I also got a 480v boost transformer rated for 25kva with the machine, so at long last I will finally be able to put power to the horizontal. Sadly, there's not much room left for that thing and it's likely to see the highway in short order. I had purchased it partly with the intention of making it cnc at some point, but having learned that older cnc machines can be had in excellent condition for the expense you'd incur retrofitting a manual, there's just no point in doing it now.

storts1 - April 5, 2009 06:03 PM (GMT)
Jim,Wonder if it came from out my way,? we had Lots of work in the 80's, And thats 1 hell of a steal!!!!!! :D,If if it came from Pratt or Skirorsky there will be many stickers,they never take them off,my fork lift stilll has the Pratt stickers on!

Thats not to bad on the Power,what i dont understand,was my old shop had a 200 amp,3 phase power,and with all the antiqueated equipment if your were to add up If you were to add up, had to be well into the 4-600 amp,and with all the guys,I only poped the Main Once,in 28 years in that dungon!!! The tig ran on a 100 amp breaker,and I had guys air arcing, Some body else plasma cutting,which had a 80 amp breaker,and 4 or 5 welders working, Cranes Being used, The offices all lit and the AC on, plus grinders,etc, and never a problem???????

Ran my hand many times over the main box,and never hot!! ???Got me! Oh and the 50 hp pres brake motor running!


You had your Luckie day,what did you have a whole 1/2 " ????????? ,Know it time to make some Parts!!!! :D :D Hey,Maybe it made a Part for chenobal in its background?!!!!!

Franzę - April 5, 2009 06:14 PM (GMT)
"cell"- is that a nasty comment about the people learning to be machine operators who wear ancle bracelets that transpond to locator units?

So a lot of the "students" in the program are also doing a bit of time. There are other students who don't have bracelets.

Sheesh, you act like halfway houses are only for girls who won't go all the way.

storts1 - April 5, 2009 06:17 PM (GMT)
Is there a addition in the making???????

Franz,Lookat it this way, cable tv,dont need a remote,as the channell buttons are right there,,My type of machine! :lol: :D :D

Hey the more parts per hr.the more $$$$$$$$$$ goes in the pocket!! :D :D :D

egon - April 5, 2009 06:31 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
but I don't have the stock for the uprights yet.


Ain't got no trees in the neighbourhood? :lol:

Franz,he just be upset cause he be thinkin of all the "Not a Building" he could make while sittin back and drinking beer! :P

Dunnow about a plumber or rigger, looks like a lack of braces to me! :rolleyes:

Looks like a nice shop though. :D

Franzę - April 5, 2009 07:07 PM (GMT)
Maybe if he's nice to me I'll let him sell connector kits for nonweldors to make NotA buildings from wood.

JT Metalworks - April 5, 2009 07:43 PM (GMT)
Lack of braces Egon? What's missing braces? Is that canahodian for "suspenders?"

The front cover isn't installed in these shots, and the coolant tank/chip pan is missing as well- but that's just because I took these while the riggers were still here. I haven't brought the camera back out since and I still have to move a bunch of equipment around now that the machine has been placed.

I don't like wood for a material rack. Just a personal preference. The design I have in mind wouldn't adapt well with wood joined edges, and it would occupy more volume with less storage capacity to make it out of timber. I haven't been to the steel yard with the truck lately, so I haven't been able to haul the long stock home. I'm thinking some 6" channel uprights with some shelves and some pvc tubes for short stock. You'll see...

Jack, the total load is nowhere near 63A most of the time. Like I said, it's a rare occasion that you'd be spinning something to full hp on the main spindle while running both axes to full load as well. They need a rating for the electrical wires, so they measure it full tilt. Getting it there in use would take some doing.

As for coming from out east - I know exactly where this machine came from. It was installed new in late `82 in Edina, MN. Know how I know that's where it came from? The stickers on it concur with the shipping label that my 5C collet nose came overnighted in. I'm not going to say, because the outfit I bought it from wasn't supposed to let that slip - but they left the "needs no calibration" sticker with their logo on it, on the machine. They make rocket fuel and own the largest bullet manufacturing company in the world. I think you can find out who that is from that. ;)

If your electrical panel were getting warm, you'd have a serious problem.

There's no way to add any more space other than going "up" as the lot usage has been maximized right now per the 25% limitation. I could add more to the shed as long as I didn't pull a permit for it (it wouldn't be conforming or legal then), but that's not likely as the elevated gazebo should have more storage space under it for that stuff (and the shed isn't all that crowded as it is).

Nope, the next time I need more space it will mean relocation or elimination of things present (like the horizontal). I don't envision getting a cnc mill in the near future (that could change of course), but if that were to happen, I'd probably sell the excello to make space. The voest is safe for a good long time due to the extensive labor involved in changing a hydraulic chuck or collet nose out, centering the jaws for a different size part (hydraulic chucks only have a narrow range of travel), and generally being more cumbersome to set up. A cnc vertical mill on the other hand would be a lot easier to deal with in manual mode as the only issue is finding your part which means the vise on most of my work. The tools being set heights and the control acting as a dro makes the transition less trouble.

You're entirely correct about the volume throughput increase with the cnc machine. I'm getting back into some products that weren't very lucrative turning them manually due to a number of factors (running dry being a big one), but that will be extremely profitable done on the cnc lathe. Add in the lack of machinist fatigue and the ability to be multi-tasking while the lathe is churning away and it's like having a fast employee that doesn't **** or ever show up late. :)

This also opens up some entirely new products as they're not as labor intensive as they would've been manually. You'll be seeing some of those in the coming months. I need to polish off the semester, and will be hitting it pretty hard come summer break.

Franzę - April 6, 2009 12:25 AM (GMT)
Braces is both Limey and upper crust polite society for suspenders JT, neither of whick you probably been exposed to. The Canahodians couldn't afford their own word and they didn't want to sound too American so they used braces.

Jack coulda told you, but it woulda been in code and you'd still be confused.

Main - April 6, 2009 02:30 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (JT Metalworks @ Apr 5 2009, 09:12 AM)


It looks a lot closer to the wall than it really is.

Cool pencil sharpener. Is that thing blocking one of your doors?

JT Metalworks - April 6, 2009 03:23 AM (GMT)
Nope, I could actually stand to move the lathe back another 6" without interfering with the swing. I haven't decided if it's worth the effort to put it on bars and scoot it or not. The cabinet doesn't extend to the full corner back there and the hydraulic power unit is tucked in a little.

The back edge of the electrical cabinets is essentially in the same plane as the leading edge of the door cavity. I want to keep a pathway to the door, but I don't need to maintain any given width other than "acceptable to myself." Even with the usual scrap pile in front of it, I can typically open it a full 90 degrees. The stock rack will live in that corner (eventually), so that will remain the goal for access.

Once I decide the final positioning of the excello I'll determine if I really need more space between the two to get through there or not. I'm not sure where my machining toolboxes are going to live at the moment either.

Having the voest against the wall again means I can put shelves above the bed, so that'll be nice.

egon - April 6, 2009 10:16 AM (GMT)
Being in the automated machinist world now there is a requirement for proper terminology and braces will now have to be replaced by white coveralls and Lab coats. :) but don't forget the proper footwear. :rolleyes:

Now Marko, with his fire, iron and hammer method he knows all about leather aprons! :rolleyes:

Is it appropriate to ask what kind of metal objects would be created in the machines in the shop. I'm not too familiar with the machinist world and thought parts just came from the Store! :o

Main - April 6, 2009 11:24 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (JT Metalworks @ Apr 5 2009, 10:23 PM)
I'm not sure where my machining toolboxes are going to live at the moment either.


Wheels. Put your boxes on wheels and they can live where ever is convenient at the moment.

storts1 - April 6, 2009 12:12 PM (GMT)
Jim,Thats how my buddy started,he was a real estate agent,Bought a Bridgeport. Hired a real smart Kid,that talked him into a cnc,lathe, and well he now has over 4 Million in equipment!, All cnc,except for a couple of manual,and Hes slow now,well who isnt??????? But had 28 guys ,Before this mess started!!!!

And findin good cnc machinists were the hardest,so Bob,the "Kid he hired" doesnt have to program every machine,he can only draw so fast on auto cad,and shoot it to Machine # 6,,and then the machinest can run a sample to test,then a little tweeking, and bingo,Parts galor!!!! as hes running 4 more machining centers. And Bob doesnt have to babysit!!!!!! All within 12 years!!!!, WOW, Hes down to about 10 now,But sees things picking up!!!!!! :D :D :D :D :D :D


He only bought 2 used,and they looked as they were new, Cost a fortune if some thing has to be fixed,that they cant do,and if there not under warentee,Wow,That bill runs up real fast,, airfare,hotel,course the best!! Thats why he trys to stay new,and makes the payments,But they were going 3 shifts when things were really going,Didnt take to long until there was a new caddy in his parking lot,,

Helps that he has 3 sons now working for him,and he gave bob a small percentage of the buisness,,dont want him getting away!!!!!! If Not i think my buddy would still be playing part time,, Bob saw the future,and not to long ago,,Plus a good Banker always helped out!!!!! Good for Him!!! We go to a wedding,and Tony,the Owner comes up to me,Hes Joanns Uncle! :o Them Itralians are all related!! :D :lol: :D
I agree,I would stay away from a wood steel rack, Id be a dead duck if the Ins co every walked in,and your also a welding shop,. Im sorry i sold my old one from the dungon,it would of worked perfect,welll another project!!!!!!!!And $$$$$$$

storts1 - April 6, 2009 12:19 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Franzę @ Apr 5 2009, 07:25 PM)
Braces is both Limey and upper crust polite society for suspenders JT, neither of whick you probably been exposed to. The Canahodians couldn't afford their own word and they didn't want to sound too American so they used braces.

Jack coulda told you, but it woulda been in code and you'd still be confused.

Franz, I had no clue,But they had a rerun of Home Improvement on last week,and Tims Little kid got his own tool belt,so he could be like a real plummer!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: ,,Think it was the first one when they put "MORE POWER " to the dishwasher,, what a great show!!!!!! :D

JT Metalworks - April 6, 2009 04:29 PM (GMT)
Charlie, they're already on wheels. The problem is being able to get around them or not blocking out another machine while you've moved it to get at something else.

The little dolly cart that also came with the machine is going to work pretty slick for parking my rotary table under the voest. That's what the plastic crate of "feet" pads was on in the pics.

Jack, as for expansion - the only work I want is enough to keep me and my family busy. If things got really busy, I have a couple good friends I'd like to hire, but other than that I have NO intention of becoming a boss again. I've been there, done that, and I don't like babysitting other people I expect to work to my standards. If I ever get to where I can't keep up with demand, I'll simply raise prices till the customers start falling off.

My first move towards expansion will be a bar feeder, the second will be a part unloader if I get that lazy and don't just want a box catching them under the chuck. The lathe has at least three programmable ports left on it because it could be equipped with an automatic follow rest, a bar feed, and a parts catcher. There's at least two more unused DIN plugs beyond that in the panel where those plug in. I haven't read up enough on the Fanuc 3Td to determine what the limits are yet.

Franzę - April 6, 2009 05:20 PM (GMT)
Ya know JT if that machine has some decent hydraulics you can install a couple quick connectors and use it to run a wood splitter. That way you could get some real use out of it.

storts1 - April 6, 2009 06:56 PM (GMT)
Jim,Didnt know if ya want to put a few on,thats why my Buddy has Bob,,well the Kid is all grown with 2 of his own,so Tony the Owner has nothing to baby sit,,,thats Bobs job,and theve had the same crew for going on 10 years,,he treats Bob real good!!!!!!!! Total Performance made him,,1 cust,and word of mouth!!!!!!!!

I allways for some reason made more money with a half a dozen,than had 37 when i bought the company! And the quality was allways there!! Had to,there was to much competion back then,But also enough work to go around ,,but it better be good,because 99% of my stuff was all resale back then! And Storts had 2 OLD germans that were shop formans,and they were tough! But kept the guys on the ball!


My job was kinda like the old owner,drive to the customers, Shoot the BS,and Pick up the prints,,no comps or Gas out of site,and Believe it or not,Health Ins was cheap,, we have 2 hospitals today,who will not take Anthem Ins any more!!!!! So drive anthor 45 Mins to a different Hosp!!!!!! what a crock! If you want to see your reg doc,then the money comes out of your pocket!!!! or go to another Hosp! Must be nice!!! <_< :( :unsure:


I could sit and watch those cnc lathes and machinig centers work for hours,,How a Machine can be so smart,Never take a vacation, bathroom breaks, and the counter tells ya how many are in he bucket,and they have a auto bar feeder,,is that what you call it,where he willstack maybe 12 lenghts with the crane or lift truck,and they slide down,and into the lathe!!!!! Real sharp,even now to watch the stuff work!!! :D

storts1 - April 6, 2009 07:02 PM (GMT)
Opps,Then 2 high school girls,the parts are light,they take the boxes over to the machine with all the little stones in them,and then Box them,and Ups comes!! Done! and waits for the check! :D :D :D

Ohhh,forgot the central air,as they have to have it for the heat of the machines and computers,, Nice lunch room with cable tv,

Last I talked to Tony,hes thinking of staying with a dozen employeees,,He has a nice little operation there :D In not a Long time,,talk about being in the right place at the right time,To meet the owner of Total Performance!,,Little LUCK involved!

You would not want to pay in 1 month to the town,for taxes on all the machinery!! Same as what you just stole yours for, !YIKEES!!!!!!!Not a year,per Month! :o

JT Metalworks - April 6, 2009 10:16 PM (GMT)
The hydraulics are low pressure. I think the chuck maxes out at 250-300 psi or right about there. The pump is good for 500ish if I remember right.

I did think about putting a manifold on there with disconnects, but it's not enough pressure to justify doing it over adding another power pack to the shop arsenal.

tackit - April 9, 2009 04:53 AM (GMT)
That really is a nice set up Jim, good luck with it. I'm machine challenged so I don't know exactly what it's all about but it sure looks up to any task you want to do on it. it will be interesting and fun to see your first turning. :)

JT Metalworks - April 9, 2009 05:32 AM (GMT)
The beauty of CNC machines is exactly what Franz hates about them. You only really need to know how to properly set offsets for the tools and the work in the controller, then tell the control what the tool geometry is, and then just give it some input as to where the stock is now (rough), and how aggressively you want to cut out it's shape (there's even a "canned" cycle for roughing), and how deep and at what sfm you want your finish pass. Nothing to it.

I'm hoping the drive will be at the terminal for retrieval tomorrow before I head out to Wisconsin for dinner at my sis's place, but I won't get to installing the wiring for it till friday. We also have the mrs' aunt and her boeing engineer hubby coming in from Seattle for the weekend and will be hanging out with them at some point.

Today I picked up a 100A disconnect box for terminating the branch circuit in, but I wasn't able to get the fuses for it. The place most likely to have them isn't too far from the same outfit I get my way oil from, and I need to stop by there tomorrow or friday as well. I could put bus bars across the slots and not affect anything (since the circuit will be on its own breaker at the main panel), but I generally shy away from that. Tomorrow I hope to get some conduit run and maybe even plug it in.

None of that really makes much difference at the moment anyway, since I haven't gotten the majority of my needed insert tool holders yet. lol All the turret holders are 1" square (or 1" round for boring bars/drill chucks). I've got a cutoff tool holder coming tomorrow, and I already have a knurling tool, I might have a facing tool that'll fit, but I don't have anything to cut an OD. I could always rig up something to stick one of my smaller holders in there to get me by, but I'm not in a big rush to put the machine in service. Lining up the centerline might be more trouble than its worth as well. Tool holders are only about 75 bucks, I just need to figure out what ones I need and make a move on it.

tackit - April 9, 2009 10:10 AM (GMT)
Sounds fascinating. I have never been around such a machine so to me CNC's are complicated and intimidating, you having the knowledge to know how to run it makes it sound very easy..... but me and my machine challenged twin Jack would have it bouncing around the shop and on fire in about two minutes. :lol:

Has CNC metal cutting technology reached the state where you can put a picture of what you want turned into a reader and out comes a part the way new sewing machines can sew pictures from a magazine or digital camera? I find that technology neat too.


JT Metalworks - April 9, 2009 02:32 PM (GMT)
The machines themselves work on very rudimentary instruction sets. They simply do the heavy math calculations for you in determining the points along an arc to hit with the cutter rather than you having to turn the dials to hit them and already have all of them calculated out before starting the process.

Essentially all CNC's run on is logic commands and destination information. Turn spindle on, speed, direction of rotation - that's handled with a couple letters and a couple definition numbers. Then you have the location of where the axes are, and where they need to go - all of that is handled when you program it. You have a start point, then you tell it how far away the "work" is, then by location information you tell it where to travel around that work.

There's really nothing to it once you understand how the commands function and what syntax is expected by the controller (the lines have to follow a protocol). We write basic programs in text format then change the extension to the right letters for the machine to see it as a program.

tackit - April 10, 2009 01:21 AM (GMT)
Thanks Jim for explaining that so well, you have taken the spooky out of it for me :)

Franzę - April 13, 2009 06:35 AM (GMT)
Hey JT has that fancy pencil sharpener got a learn mode, or do you have to use a crayola and draw it picturse first?

JT Metalworks - April 13, 2009 06:58 AM (GMT)
It's got a conversational control that walks you through the options, or you can straight code it into the console. There's also a computer connection that allows you to upload previously coded programs off your hard drive, but I haven't gotten that far into it yet.

Tonight I finally broke the "code" to unleash my 75hp vfd's V/H mode and allow it to run the Nak, but I have the leads wired incorrectly on the main transformer so the vfd's 180v output is further reduced by the 230v input setting on the coils right now (the machine needs 175-220v). I wired it before I bought the vfd and this particular model only spits out 180v (common to japan). I'll get that rearranged tomorrow so it'll boost the vfd's voltage back up over 200 and we should be cookin with gas.

As it sits, the controller booted up, but it had an error that wouldn't clear and the hydraulic pump didn't come on - so I have a feeling the voltage was too low to trigger the contactors.




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