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Title: Powder torch . . . . .


Markopolo - August 7, 2005 09:55 PM (GMT)
OK guys, edjukate me.......

I think I want one of these "powder torches".....

http://www.ramweldingsupply.com/products-view.mcic?s=897

TELL ME ABOUT THEM.

Thanks, Marko.

john pen - August 8, 2005 02:19 AM (GMT)
Marco, check the link, it went to a login window

Arbo - August 8, 2005 03:25 AM (GMT)
I assume this is some sort of "build-up" type welding. What would it be used for?

Franzę - August 8, 2005 04:10 AM (GMT)
Aw cripes Marko, save me about a million characters of typin and tell me what you think you can use a powder torch for.
They are a fairly specialized tool that unless you have work for them every day spend 99% of their life sitting in a box, and when the job finally comes along, you forgot you owned the dam thing and do the buildup another way.
Should I also mention it's a long learning curve, and unless you do buildups fairly regularly, you'll need to relearn the technique?
BTW, powdered metal torches were the second product I know of that was called Spray Welding.

This link may work
http://www.ramweldingsupply.com/products-view.mcic?s=897

moody - August 8, 2005 05:33 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (john pen @ Aug 8 2005, 02:19 AM)
Marco, check the link, it went to a login window

you dont have to sign in, theres a way around it

i think i just pushed sign in

Wyoming - August 8, 2005 05:41 AM (GMT)
Franz or Marko,
What is this animal...a way to do case hardening with a torch in a bit simpler manner or is there another use?

Franzę - August 8, 2005 06:15 AM (GMT)
The short answer is NO.
Case hardening is done by heating steel in cyonide, or dipping the red hot steel into cyonide. I haven't done it in a number of years, partly because playing with cyonide doesn't appeal to fulfilling my wellness potential.

These torches are designed to deposit a thin layer of molten powdered metal onto a piece of metal that has been brought to welding temperature. One of the funniest things I ever saw was when somebody tried to build up a galled bearing surface of an electric motor shaft. The HAZ took care of any further repair potential.
You can also deposit a layer of hard surface a few thousanths thick, but you often get into warpage problems because of the amount of heat you pump into the piece.

Wyoming - August 8, 2005 06:24 AM (GMT)
Franz,

The short answer works well for me here, but how about another quick and dirty one to tell me what the use or benefit from this torch is. If it isn't for case hardening or hard surfacing I'm totally clueless as to what the benefit would be.


Mountain Mike^^ - August 8, 2005 06:50 AM (GMT)
Looks like all the cauldren of misfits are in this post................ :lol:

I've done a bit of powder spraying. Albeit, 30 some years ago. Franz is right, to a degree, you heat up the metal, and your torch acts kinda like a spray paint gun.

What you can spray, and what you can achieve, is the question, right?

From what I remember, I sprayed a case hardening compound on to an annealed crankshaft that had been turned (machined) undersize due to wear of the main and rod bearings. This was done to true up the out of round specs of the journals. Naturally, in my other life, I would have done whatever to make the engine "cherry." I think it was a 265 ci, Chevy in a 1956 Bel Aire body. The idea was to make the crank standard, and avoid use of undersize bearings, plus adding the case hardening of the original configuration. (if there was one). Some cranks are forged, some are cast and turned.
The forged were said to be the best............(for racing)

After spraying, the journals were honed to spec and smoothed with (no shit, 400 grit wet/dry). The oil holes were champhered with a hand drill and a fine coning stone. All finished by hand. And the result?

Franz knows, and I'll wait for him...........

:P


Mikey

Franzę - August 8, 2005 06:57 AM (GMT)
Roy mine has been on loan in my buddy's shop for over 10 years, which sorta shows how beneficial owning the damn thing is to me.
Ideally, you can use it to build up, layer by layer and get a smoother deposit than you can get with stick or MIG, therefore less machining.
In my opinion, they are long on promise and short on delivery, other than possibly in a production situation.
As I recall, when I bought mine, it came with a supply of powsers including steel, hard surface, brass, zink and some convolution called aluminizing. If I recall correctly, it operates well in a flat position, and only so so verticle. Also, there is a problem with the powder caking from moisture in the air.
It might be good for hard surfacing small parts that you didn't want to TIG some Stoody wire onto. Frankly I don't ever recall being real impressed with it after I got it. In my opinion, the torch just puts too much heat into most weldments and the same task can be performed a lot easier other ways.

Wyoming - August 8, 2005 07:10 AM (GMT)
Franzie,

Thanks for a bit longer answer...I had thought that the work performed by this torch was in the high button shoe range due to hard surface rod and wire, but it isn't anything I've done...so what do I know. Did a small bit of cyanide work back in high school, but it was only to learn how to do it. I think that even back then the days were numbered for gas hard surfacing on anything in the general fold. Truth be told, even back than using a gas welder for a job was not most peoples first choice.

Marko,

Did you have a specific use for this torch? I know from reading that you enjoy torch work...so is this just an extension of that or do you have a job that calls for this torch work?

Markopolo - August 8, 2005 11:08 PM (GMT)
Well since you ask Wy......I DID have a little job that I needed to do some "build-up" on....not much mind you, maybe .040" or so.

I just thought this contraption would do a nicer job than laying bead and grinding. :huh:

Markopolo - August 8, 2005 11:12 PM (GMT)
P.S........I finally just used the Heliarc to float some thin bead on the part, then finish ground.....It worked.......

But I thought this (powder torch) may be something useful to have around.

Franzę - August 9, 2005 02:10 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Markopolo @ Aug 8 2005, 06:12 PM)
P.S........I finally just used the Heliarc to float some thin bead on the part, then finish ground.....It worked.......

But I thought this (powder torch) may be something useful to have around.

Yup, sure is useful to have around. After you get thoroughly frustrated withthe damn thing, you box it up and put it on a shelf to be around. Then, if you get lucky, somebody with a higher desire for frustration comes along and borrows it, and 10 years later, you still remember youown it and who borrowed it.
They might be good in a production situation, but they ain't for shyt in a one off.

Markopolo - August 9, 2005 02:23 AM (GMT)
OK Uncle Franz........I'll consider this thread "Answered" !

Guess I don't need one that bad after all........... :(

(although I DID read somewhere, that they are GREAT for cast-iron repair).......... :huh:

Franzę - August 9, 2005 02:41 AM (GMT)
Mike, did you go thru all that only to learn you hadn't washed all the grinding dust out of the oil galley in the crank, or did the bearings eat the deposit metal? Don't tell me you warped the crank in the process, or induced a lot of stress and couldn't tighten down the main bearings.

40 years back there was an outfit called TuffRide that rebuilt cranks by welding them up with hard surface and regrinding them. After a whole lot of listenin to We do D8 cranks, what the hell makes you think we need to practice on a tinkertoy, they agreed to do the crank for my Massey Harris Pony. When the tractor was back together, it sounded SWEET for a hour. When we pulled the oil pan and bearing caps, we learned the crank that had come back covered in oil, with installation instructions that said install as received, do not remove assembly oil had evidently not been washed out properly. TuffRide rebuilt it again, free of charge, and paid for bearings and a gasket set.

Jpill - August 9, 2005 01:16 PM (GMT)
We have two spray torches here in the shop for repairing seal areas and roller bearing fits. We never use them on bushing or babbitt bearing fits. They are only really economical to use on larger shafts 8" and larger, otherwise a speedi-sleeve. or a special designed sleeve is used. As far a cast iron repair I'll just say you can use it, but after paying for the powder and the amount of prepwork involved you are better off grinding and welding, or brazing. The only reason they are economical on the larger shafts is based on the cost of material and making a new shaft.

If it were me I would save my money for other tools more useful.

storts - August 9, 2005 09:06 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Franzę @ Aug 8 2005, 09:10 PM)
QUOTE (Markopolo @ Aug 8 2005, 06:12 PM)
P.S........I finally just used the Heliarc to float some thin bead on the part, then finish ground.....It worked.......

But I thought this (powder torch) may be something useful to have around.

Yup, sure is useful to have around. After you get thoroughly frustrated withthe damn thing, you box it up and put it on a shelf to be around. Then, if you get lucky, somebody with a higher desire for frustration comes along and borrows it, and 10 years later, you still remember youown it and who borrowed it.
They might be good in a production situation, but they ain't for shyt in a one off.

Franz,,You Must have the same as i have, Looks like that old gas torch,and hah a container of what ever you are spraying,,Put in lathe,,turning kinda slow,,and hit the trigger to spray, when the temp is right,,I got mine from Utectic,,,adn the saleman was a very good friend,,gave me the set up,,Just had to buy the spray powder from them,,,Mucho$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ,,,Whats a job shop do with some thing like this,,still had to have my buddy who ownes a all cnc machine shop, finish it,,,We Must be talking about the same animal,,Jack

Franzę - August 10, 2005 01:35 AM (GMT)
Quite possibly Jack, as I recall, it had a tin hopper on top that held the powder, and the whole thing came in a yellow tool box. If we keep talkin about this thing long enough I may just drive 20 miles and reclaim mine, if it can be found.

It was supposed to be one hell of a lot better than the rig with the copper brushes you could set up in a lathe, and rotate a shaft while you "sprayed" stick weld on for buildups, cause there was no slag to contend with that came out in the 50s. That thing was the most overpriced damn buzbox I ever did see, and just about guarandamnteed to kill ya between tryin to get your hood down and restrike the arc somewhere near where the last rod left off. At least that system worked if you put the job on a pair of pipe rollers and had a helper turn the piece for you rather than tryin to use the lathe. The damn rod they sold for a couple bucks a pound back then wasn't worth shyt either, and would generally scale off like oatmeal when you machined it.

storts - August 10, 2005 01:51 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Franzę @ Aug 9 2005, 08:35 PM)
Quite possibly Jack, as I recall, it had a tin hopper on top that held the powder, and the whole thing came in a yellow tool box. If we keep talkin about this thing long enough I may just drive 20 miles and reclaim mine, if it can be found.

It was supposed to be one hell of a lot better than the rig with the copper brushes you could set up in a lathe, and rotate a shaft while you "sprayed" stick weld on for buildups, cause there was no slag to contend with that came out in the 50s. That thing was the most overpriced damn buzbox I ever did see, and just about guarandamnteed to kill ya between tryin to get your hood down and restrike the arc somewhere near where the last rod left off. At least that system worked if you put the job on a pair of pipe rollers and had a helper turn the piece for you rather than tryin to use the lathe. The damn rod they sold for a couple bucks a pound back then wasn't worth shyt either, and would generally scale off like oatmeal when you machined it.

Gota Be,,,Oxy-acc,,and got to temp and pulled the rigger,,Like a sray gun,,and the powder would stick real nice,,,and be real bright,,I used to do it with brazing glases,,and it would leave a nice deposit,,brass, silicon bronz,,steel,
almost like sending it out to get hard chromed,,But they were small, and the big house in ct, was Mirror Polliching and Plating, In waterbury,,Ive repaired some tanks tjere,,All Koraseal,,
Boy did they have some big tanks,,,,90 ft. long,,,25 ft deep x 40 ft wide,,,Now thats a tank!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Jack

storts - August 10, 2005 02:08 AM (GMT)
fRANZ,,i RESIZE Pics and some go thru,,,some dont,,and there under a 100??????????what gives,Jack

'Ol Pilot - August 12, 2005 10:24 PM (GMT)
Well, there is a powder procedure that I have specified to build up worn flap tracks and such and put a hard surface coat on them. It's called the D-gun or detonation gun procedure. Basically, it's an oxacetelyne cannon firing tungsten carbide powder at about 8 Hz at the work piece. The particles of tungsten carbide impact at hypervelocity and weld themselves from the converted energy. I believe Union Carbide (who are they now, after Bophal?) invented the procedure. Typically, about .010-.020 is deposited.

Needless to say, this has to be done in a soundproofed chamber. The noise levels are unbelievable. I actually think those levels could be fatal if you were in the chamber. And, it ain't cheap! Generally, only jet engine overhaul facilities can afford the set up, but most send the work out to UC.

Mountain Mike^^ - August 13, 2005 06:17 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Franzę @ Aug 8 2005, 09:41 PM)
Mike, did you go thru all that only to learn you hadn't washed all the grinding dust out of the oil galley in the crank, or did the bearings eat the deposit metal? Don't tell me you warped the crank in the process, or induced a lot of stress and couldn't tighten down the main bearings.


Well..............we layed the crank, and spun it around. It wobbled worse than a hummingbird on crack. I suppose we distorted it way beyond plumb.

mike

Franzę - September 26, 2005 04:23 PM (GMT)
I could BS ya on how hard I worked to find this, but really, I just stumbled on it.

Actually, it's a worthwhile read on spray coating processes, and explains the different ones very well.
http://www.airproducts.com/Products/Cylind...g_techpaper.htm




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