Title: Vampire Counts Infantry
Description: Crypt Ghouls v. Skeletons
Royazu - November 30, 2008 02:09 AM (GMT)
as I come to round out my lizardmen army and finish buying out my final models, im looking for a new army the pick up this christmas; at least until the new lizardmen book comes out in feb >:D Ill be buying a Tau battalion and learning to play 40k, or staying in the realm of fantasy and playing.. im not sure yet. this question plays into what army I might play (if I continue fantasy, and I probably will) and id really appreciate it if I could get all of your input.
vampire counts: as a basic infantry model, ghouls or skeletons? I know that a vampire player will use not only one type of infantry, but rather many - they are a combined arms army, like high elves and wood elves, and brettonia - but which type of model should be a vampire counts core?
Beartrax - November 30, 2008 05:08 AM (GMT)
Ghouls are better in every conceivable situation.
Royazu - November 30, 2008 05:09 AM (GMT)
|QUOTE (Beartrax @ Nov 30 2008, 12:08 AM)|
| Ghouls are better in every conceivable situation. |
I humbly ask for an explanation, in the spirit of healthy discussion!
1. skeletons have magic banners, +combat rez => enemy breaks => this is how undead wins (?).
2. low initiative means that undead will always strike last; skeletons have spears, allowing for attacks after suffering wounds whereas ghouls would have none. eg, ghouls take 5 wounds => no striking back, while skelles take 5 wounds => 5 striking back (spears).
3. skeleton have a 5+/4+ armor save, while ghouls simply die.
tomb blade.. the list goes on.
or, as according to probabilities, versus a typical elite unit of WS4 T4 S4:
Ghouls make 5 hits, 2 wounds, +1~ for poisoned => 3 wounds.
Skeletons make 5 hits, 2 wounds => 2 wounds, +1 for standard.
the two units are equal in combat resolution according to probabilities, but in a skeleton unit taking combat rez from static sources, eg banners, there is less room for error.
additionally, skeletons can take even more combat rez through a war banner / +4 rank bonus.
bluetony - November 30, 2008 02:40 PM (GMT)
Have a look at this thread for more opinions...
On a personal note, I hate facing ghouls. 2 poisoned attacks each, T4, Invocation of Nehek =
Tekore - November 30, 2008 09:50 PM (GMT)
I personally would field ghouls.
Beartrax - November 30, 2008 10:37 PM (GMT)
1. Skeletons may have combat resolution, but they also can't kill a dang thing. The strike last and die easy.
2. Ghouls have initiative 3, they don't always strike last.
3. Skeletons using spears have a 6+ save, which is far less useful than toughness 4, and they cost 9 points, plus they have WS 2, so almost everything hits on 3+.
Tomb Blade will res them, but for 15 pts more you can get blood drinker, which does the same thing for any unit. Plus you must consider that only one unit in each army can take the war banner and banner of the endless nightmare, where as all ghoul units have the combat advantages.
I also question your probabilities.
Ghouls: 10 attacks => 2 poison, 3 hits => 1 wound (+2 poison) => 3 combat res
Skeletons: 10 attacks => 5 hits => 2 wounds (+ banner)=> 3 combat res
But skeletons don't get spears if they charged that turn, which brings us to about 1 wound so they would come out on the bottom, and would still be expensive
If charged, elite unit would inflict:
Ghouls: 6 attacks => 4 hits => 2 wounds
Skeletons: 6 attacks => 4 hits => 3 wounds
Ghouls lose 1 more attack, but have suffered one less casualty. When it comes time to resolve the combat, the Ghouls are in a better situation. (I assumed the unit had a champion, but who takes elite units without a full command?)
Also worth mentioning, many elite units are WS 5, and then the skellies only hit on 5+.
Then we can consider the case of a non-elite unit, ie; most units (WS 3, S 3, T 3)
If VC Charge:
Ghouls: 10 attacks => 2 poison, 3 hits => 1.5 wounds (+2 poison) => 3.5 CR
Skeletons: 5 attacks => 3 hits => 1.5 wounds ( +1 banner) => 2.5 CR
If VC are charged:
Ghouls: 6 attacks => 3 hits => 1 wound
Skeletons: 6 attacks => 4 hits => 2 wounds
This time, and equal number of attacks are lost, but Ghouls have suffered 1 less wound.
Ghouls: 8 attacks => 1 poison, 3 hits => 1.5 wounds (+1 poison) => 2.5 CR
Skeletons: 8 attacks => 4 hits => 2 wounds (+1 banner) => 3 CR
But keep in mind, the skeletons would need an advantage of 1 CR to make up for the lost wound. So about 50/50 in this scenario, as the .5 wound would break one way or another, and a musician breaks the tie for the skellies. But 20 spear-toting skeletons with a banner and musician is 35 more points, for one situation being 50/50.
Royazu - December 1, 2008 02:09 AM (GMT)
thanks for the info bjorn. I was trying to find a way to rationalize fielding skeletons over ghouls, as the skeleton models look so much better. I guess not, though x_x
Shriker - December 1, 2008 02:23 AM (GMT)
do what you want. if you like the models, and don't care about the comparrison, buy them. if you want to win and don't care as much about the individual troops then pick the better. if you like how the skelies look, buy them and have fun with it.
i personnaly love anything festering & rotten, brings me some odd joy. just also turns out nurgle are highly hard to kill and effective in combat. personnaly i'd pick the ghouls more for the looks, but skelies are cool too.
also, if your done with it, i'd appreciate if you gave back my 40K rule book sometime this week.
Royazu - December 1, 2008 02:27 AM (GMT)
yeah. Ill probably play wood elves.
ill bring it tommorow, nate.
Matt - December 1, 2008 02:43 AM (GMT)
Wood Elves... heavy elf list or heavy tree people? Jw.
Royazu - December 1, 2008 03:20 AM (GMT)
dunno what kind of list Ill make - ill play games, and adapt my army to my playstyle.
Im between tau as a 40k army and wood elves as a fantasy army. While I dont like 40k so much, I figure that because the game is more popular I might be better off starting up a 40k army over fantasy and being able to play with both fantasy and 40k people rather than further expand fantasy. any truth to that?
Shriker - December 1, 2008 04:06 AM (GMT)
well i like to play both 'cause:
1) no matter what people bring tuesday (or sunday) i can adapt and still play games.
2) if i get tired of one i can play the other and re-interest my self in warhammer as a whole.
3) i can learn new tactics on two fronts. take things i learn from one game and apply it to the other.
it's really a matter of do you like knowing what army your enemy plays and have other armies to choose to fight them with, or be able to mix it up and not play the same ole' same ole' game you do every week. that and your interest in the models/game-play.
Matt - December 1, 2008 06:18 PM (GMT)
Charlie... I wouldnt play 40k purely because other people do it... if you like Fantasy more I'd have to say it'd be better to play fantasy, GW prices their stuff very high and you need to make sure its worth the money your spending.
bluetony - December 1, 2008 06:27 PM (GMT)
Though if you buy my Tau, I can give you a nice discount...!
Royazu - December 1, 2008 09:20 PM (GMT)
good points; thank you!
Im really hyped to play woodelves - not so much tau - but not because I 'dont like' the army. rather, its more like.. ive only played 40k once. does anyone want to set up a game for 40k? I know how to play, somewhat.
Shriker - December 2, 2008 03:33 AM (GMT)
i'd be more than glad to play 40k vs you anytime!... anytime being on sundays between 12 & 6pm :P
if you really want to try some 40k games, post in the 40K sections... that's where all the 40k players would look (duh?) ;) .
Royazu - December 2, 2008 04:47 AM (GMT)
|QUOTE (Shriker @ Dec 1 2008, 10:33 PM)|
| post in the 40K sections... |
|QUOTE (Bluetony @ Dec 1 2008)|
|Though if you buy my Tau, I can give you a nice discount...!|
regarding the tau.. meh. I still dunno. but -- If I dont play Tau .. Ill be playing wood elves! (the army for which you own an army book!), (which I need!) so.. you see, its what you call a, 'win-win' situation o_O
Tekore - December 2, 2008 12:25 PM (GMT)
I'd be happy to play a 40k game for fun sometime. I enjoy playing both games because it gives me a little variety and a larger player base.
bluetony - December 2, 2008 02:26 PM (GMT)
Charlie, no worries on the Tau front.
I'll bring my Wood Elf stuff tonight for you to look at