Half Blood Prince, Here and read...to be SPOILERS

So...Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince is here (and has been for a few hours). For those of us who have finished reading, I suggest we discuss it here...including how bloody annoying it is that we won't have another for another two years, at least!!! GAH!!! *breathes slowly to calm self* Okay. I won't write more here, for I am probably the only devoted nerd that has managed to finish reading it (I got it at 1:00 this afternoon and finished about an hour ago) and I really don't want to spoil it for anyone...
But when you guys finish reading it...I'd love to discuss.

*sits and twiddles thumbs, waiting.*

all i have to say is that the ending sucked and i demand an explaination on Rowling's motifs... anyone else agree??

yeah the ending did suck
me and ashley have been discusing it and she agrees with dumbledore about snape
i'll try and get her to post but i don't see her very often, she's being anti-social (but she doesn't seem to do anything else and i'm damned if i can figure out what the hell she's up to)

Hmm...I don't think I trust him (Snape). I'm considering him a greasy-haired slimeball and lousy git, right now.

R.A.B.: Regulus Black?

I just can't believe that (SPOILER don't look if haven't read!!!) Dumbledore died--he's eternal! that just doesn't happen! I was quite upset. And I can't believe they're not going to school next year.

oh yes--and Emerson of Mugglenet's interview with JK Rowling was very interesting and enlightening.
www.mugglenet.com; it's in news, shouldn't be too hard to find.

1. I don't believe that Snape is evil. My reasoning to follow, if anyone's interested (as I already talked Troy's ear off about it.)

2. Yeah, sophie, i finished it at about the same time you did...only i had to work on saturday...

3. I don't think the ending sucked at all. I knew Dumbledore was going to die. Did no one else catch all the hits at how old and frail he was getting in the last book? Or am I just a complete HP nut? As far as Harry leaving Hogwarts, I think he had to in order to prepare for his "destiny"

4. Troy, you have made absolutely no effort to get me to post, so stop trying to be all high-and-mighty. I haven't really been busy, just not wanting to hang around with everyone. I talk to you plenty, and you said yourself the other day that I hang out with you more down at the boat dock than your girlfriend does, so I don't wanna hear all this whinging.

I guess it was pretty thick of me not to know that dumbledore would die, but he really does just seem eternal. And he seemed less frail for most of the book, in spite of the burnt hand. i dunno.

And I would be thrilled to hear your non-evil Snape theory, b/c I just can't forgive him for killing Dumbledore or being a two-timing swine, currently.
Really, I can't tell what side he's on just from analyzing his behavior.

all right, as far as my snape theory....

well, first, we'll cite that JKR won't say either way, which means there's a distinct possibility that he's not evil:

I think we're going to be hearing a lot more about Snape either way, as JKR categorically refuses to answer most questions about him (ex: was he in love with Lily)

From the same interview, we have classic Rowling avoiding answering a question, meaning there is more there than She is letting on:

But note, She never actually answers.

Ok, enough interviews. Now for the evidence in cannon. (keeping in mind I've only been able to make it through the book once, and I was reading for storyline, not nitpicky plot points.)

1. Dumbledore trusted Snape. Completely. Absolutely. Dumbledore is NOT stupid. Therefore, it stands to reason that Dumbledore knew something about Snape that we don't.
2. Don't know if anyone but me remembered this in the shock of Dumbledore's actual death, but Snape was under an Unbreakable Vow to kill him if Draco couldn't. Meaning either Snape or Dumbledore had to die (interesting Harry/Voldemort parallel, ne?) I've been getting a feeling for the last few books that Dumbledore's time was coming to a close. Rowling has promised us a lot of his back story in the next book, but as far as his continuing to live and resist Voldemort...Look at it logically. Harry's the only one who can kill Voldemort, but Dumbledore was (until he died) a much more powerful wizard than Harry. That being the case, if he had lived, wouldn't he be the logical choice to defeat Voldemort. I mean, come on, a half-trained boy succeed where one of the greatest wizards of the century tried and failed? Possible, but it stretches believeability a bit. Furthermore, would Dumbledore expose his favourite student to danger if he could face it in Harry's stead? With Dumbledore alive, Harry could not face the necessary challenges to defeat Voldemort, simply because he would always be partially sheltered from them. Oh, and another note: Dumbledore already defeated his great wizard tyrant. Remember Grindelwald? Creepy Dark Wizard dude? Yeah, seems Dumbledore killed him. You can't expect him to play a pivotal role (at least not directly) in killing yet another Dark Lord. Now, after my lengthly discourse on why Dumbledore's time had to end, I haven't nearly as impressive an array of evidence supporting the necessity of Snape's presence in the final book. Most compelling is the fact that Snape is an enigma. Every book our views on his true allegiance leap between the extremes (although interestingly, most everyone I've talked to believes he is firmly one or the other. No one seems to think he's in it for his own benefit and playing the two sides against each other.) In short, Snape cannot die until our suspicions are satisfied, one way or another.
3. I personally am of the crowd that believes Dumbledore knew of the Vow and instructed Snape to act as he did. The scene is very clearly one way or the other, interpretation of certain descriptions being the only difference. Picking up from just after Snape arrives on the tower. Remember that the other Death Eaters were trying to get Draco to let one of them kill Dumbledore (for which outrage Voldemort would have certainly killed Draco, not to mention it raises an interesting question. Since Snape vowed to kill Dumbledore if Draco could not, would he die if someone else besides Draco killed him?)

Of course, now that I've typed that all out, everyone will immediately point at it and exclaim loudly, "but that proves it! See? He's an evil bloody git and I hate him. HATE!!" I disagree.
First, you will note that Dumbledore made no effort to plead for his life or to defend himself from the other Death Eaters when they were about to do what Draco could not. Would he plead with Severus to spare him, hoping that their "bond" would give him more of a chance than resistance against the others would have. I think not. Let's remember, Dumbledore can easily perform wandless magic. If he had any interest in saving himself, he could have escaped when Draco first disarmed him. Although slightly more difficult, he could probably have also fought off all the Death Eaters (a simple wandless Accio charm on his wand and he'd be back to his usual ass-kicking self.) So why, if the option of escape was available to him, would he pass it up in favour of pleading--something I doubt Dumbledore is accustomed to doing--for his life from a man who seems determined to kill him? The answer, of course, is that he wouldn't. What, then, was he pleading for? Let's pause for a moment and review what we know of Dumbledore. He is a marvelously intelligent man who, more often than not, sees the good in everyone, even when the person in question doesn't necessarily see it in himself. He is, through and through, a headmaster whose foremost concern is the safety of his students, as has been proven time and time again. It is clear that he does not believe for an instant that Draco will actually kill him, and from what we know of Dumbledore, we can gather that he would do his utmost to protect Draco, even though the latter is almost certainly a Death Eater. That would matter little to Dumbledore. What counts to him is that Draco is a student in danger, and Dumbledore's actions can protect him. I believe, therefore, that the "pleading" is simply an entreaty to Snape to follow orders (both Dumbledore's and the Vow's) and kill the headmaster, thereby protecting Draco.
Others may cite as evidence of Snape's evil nature the "revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face..." but those details, too, can be interpreted in several ways. Consider, for a moment, that Snape is, indeed, good. Place yourself in his shoes. You are being forced to kill a man you respect and like. Would you not feel a good deal of revulsion for the task you must complete? Would you not, at that moment, deeply loathe Voldemort for putting you in that situation? I know I would.
4. When Harry tracks Snape down and is throwing curses and jinxes at him, Snape never once attacks him. In fact, his comments make the whole thing seem like a sort of lesson in Occlumency. He even stops the other Death Eater from putting Harry under Cruciatus. Granted, Snape's excuse is that Harry must be saved for Voldemort, but come on, he's been under the curse before. It's not like letting the Death Eater put him in a little pain is going to spoil him for Voldemort.

I'm sure I'll find further evidence in my next readthrough, but having gotten up at 5:30 this morning (and considering it is now 11:43 and I've been tramping around New York all day) I'm rather too tired to remember anything else.

Brilliantly put, luv, as always. Did you notice that you spelled it "favourite" in there somewhere? *grin*

I am of Ashley's opinion, that Snape is not evil, and that Dumbledore foresaw the possibility of his own death and planned accordingly. Do I believe he knew he was going to die? No (and perhaps that's partially what JKR's trying to say?...you know how vague she gets unless she's asked the exact right question). I do believe Dumbledore realized that he might not make it out of the conflict alive.

I will admit that I actually did a double-take and went back and reread the part where Dumbledore's actually killed. My head went, No, that's not possible. You're nuts, and I had to reread it. I wasn't in the slightest surprised that Draco couldn't go through with it - I've never thought that Draco was evil. Misguided, oh yes of course. Wrong, yes. A bully, definitely. Mean, even. Rude and awful and a general, all-around, world-class git. But not evil. And look - I was right! I'll bet you anything the Order's put him and Narcissa in a safehouse or something.

I'm still shocked about the Harry-leaving-Hogwarts thing. It's his home! And - how is that going to work? No, siriusly. In the narrative style JKR uses - she writes from Harry's point of view. Yes, it jumps around a bit, e.g. to Voldemort, or in this one Fudge, but - if he leaves Hogwarts - and are Ron and Hermione really going to go with him? I mean, they can't not, but are they? I don't know if that makes any kind of sense. Maybe not. In fact, almost certainly not. But - gaaah.

One thing I think is great about the books is that you can read them in several ways. You can just read them through as children's books, fantasy novels that are a fun read. You can also read them for the themes JKR has woven in: friendship, loyalty, greed, and prejudice just being a few of them. JKR herself has said that she considers friendship to be one of the most important themes of the series. And she's such a genius with foreshadowing. I've only actually read it through once, for the storyline, but I am most definitely going back and reading it again for clues and hints and general obsessive fangirly things. I'll be sure to keep you all posted. ^__~

A note on Harry and Ginny. There is no way this is the last we're going to see of her. She has become far too important to the plot for her to just quietly fade into the background now. I think JKR has developed her as a very smart, strong-willed, stubborn character, and I highly doubt she's just going to step back and let Harry throw himself into mortal danger without having something to say about it. And JKR even says some of this, too, in the Mugglenet/TLC interview...

...I would also like to point out that I have been saying since CoS that Ginny was an important character. Since when does JKR do big, plot changing things Just Because? I've been saying that since 1998, thank you very much, and I'd just like to take a moment to boast and say HAH! I WAS RIGHT! And JKR further confirmed that this isn't the last we'll see of Ginny, either:

I'm dubious about the RAB thing. By Sunday evening the prevailing theory in the fandom was that RAB is, indeed, Sirius' brother Regulus. However, in the interview, JKR said

This worries me. This could be interpreted two different ways. The first, and the one we'd all like to think it means, is that we're on the right track and JKR's just trying not to give anything away; that she's saying, Yes, good, but I can't tell you quite yet. The other possibility is that we're all dead wrong, and that's where the "oh, have you now?" came from. I do, however, think that if read very, very carefully, HBP will tell us itself who RAB is, or at least give us a clue, and a far better one than just people being clever enough to remember Regulus Black.

The following I can take no credit for, because it was something I found in someone's LJ...

Iiiiiiiiiiiiiinteresting...brilliant, really, I think. I highly doubt Voldie's going to try to break into Hogwarts and steal Gryffindor's sword. He's egotistical, but not quite that much. Even with Dumbledore gone, the castle will protect itself far too well. And yes, I realize Death Eaters got in this time 'round, but that's because Draco let them in, remember? And now, as noted before, he's gone into hiding, or something similar. I can guarantee that the staff will be keeping a closer watch on the students, too.

A few side notes, in which I'd like to do some more bragging...I'd like to point out that I've been a Bill/Fleur shipper since GoF and a Remus/Tonks one since OotP...oh, I totally called that one. I SO totally called that one. I am teh sh1t.

On a related note, for those of you who haven't read the interview, I thought this was rather funny...

Also, the bit with the cave scared the shit out of me. Didn't help that I was reading it at like 2 AM by flashlight. I kept thinking, "OH MY GOD IT'S SAMARA!!!" and picturing the well from The Ring...only much, much bigger. Shiver shudder. But oh my god - the tension in that scene - I was just sitting there, thinking, Wow. This...is just...wow. Oh my god.

And that's something I felt like she was doing throughout the course of the entire book. Unlike in the previous books (well, OotP a bit, but not nearly to this extent), there's honestly not a lot of action. Characters talk, and analyze things, and we're given a lot of backstory, given a lot of important facts, both ones we could have worked out on our own and ones we couldn't (e.g. all the stuff about Riddle's childhood). And the entire way, I could just feel the tension building. It seems to me as though Dumbledore was imparting every last piece of wisdom and knowledge he could manage - again, because he suspected he might die? Who knows - before the end of the book. From a stylistic viewpoint, it was beautifully done. I could just tell that something huge was about to happen. And what do you know - it did.

Well, anyway, I'm getting yelled at for being online at 2AM, and that's all I have to say for the moment. You can all fully expect for me to come back and ramble some more at a later date.

Ah! Brilliant! People who check mugglenet as obsessively as I do! woot!

I have to say, your not-evil-Snape theory has some very excellent points. Very excellent indeed. Reading it, I was forced to partially come around to your point of view--you certainly say it better than my mother does, who is simply thinking wishfully. I do see that those lines of hatred could be loathing for the task he had to do, whether b/c Dumbledore asked him to or to preserve his own life.

I have wondered whether he was simply in it for his own interest all around--particularly after the Half Blood Prince thing revealed him to be so similar to Voldemort in being a loner, one who retitles himself b/c he loathes his father but idolizes his mother's line, and who went deep enough into the Dark Arts to create such vicious spells as Sectumsempra. I can't help but think of PoA...I'll finish this later, parents summon.

My God. I've been gone so long i don't know where to start. I'll say this: RAB is definitely Regulus. Snape is a greasy git, but I trust Dumbledore's judgement. And this is probably the best book so far in the series.

i'm not so sure R.A.B. is regulus. i've got to read it through again, but i dont think it'd be as obvious as someone being clever enough to remember a person's initials.

okay, so like i was saying, PoA:

This is the standard to which the Marauders, as friends and brothers, hold each other; Lily gave her life to protect his son; James died fighting to protect his family. All of these people knew that they must die, but accepted it willingly in order to save their loved ones. If this is the standard upheld throughout the books, why excuse Snape? He's still a greasy git that valued his own life more than that of his mentor, protector, and quasi-father figure. Even if Dumbledore ordered Snape to kill him so that he would not break his vow and die, Snape should have disobeyed him. I can't forgive him, no matter what, comparing him to his peers in this book. I think the selfish git didn't want to die, and whether he hated killing Dumbledore or not, the fact remains that he did. he probably is just looking out for himself. He clearly passes information both ways...he enjoys the same confidence from Voldemort as he does from Dumbledore (although in a rather different sense).

I just pity Draco. Poor sap.

They probably will leave Hogwarts. After all, Jo did say that she has written her last Quidditch game...However, I, like you, do not think that we have seen the last of Ginny Weasley. She won't stand for his being a piggy hero.

I had an inkling about the parents' graves thing, too, but I wasn't thinking Horcrux. I was thinking Inferi and more stuff for Harry to endure. Poor chap. But the Horcrux idea is brilliant.
I was wondering, though, about Gryffindor's sword--what if it is a Horcrux? The Sorting Hat dropped it on Harry's head when he was fighting Tom Riddle, a wee bit of Voldy's mangled soul; what if the sword is another bit, and has been for longer than it has been under Dumbledore's protection? It was generally an unknown relic before Harry pulled it out of the Hat; what if it was a Horcrux, and the hat was giving him even more help than he had asked for? Voldy was looking for things from all four founders; perhaps he had come across the sword in his travels or his late-night-wanderings of the school. Ooh, look, quotations!

Okay, that was long, but I thought it was important. It's a good scene anyways...lots o' good stuff in there. But I want to point out some things. Foremost, when Harry defended Dumbledore, his personal possession and very intelligent pet (as stated by JKR), the phoenix Fawkes, came to his aide, bringing another very intelligent object that spent most of it's life in Dumbledore's study, the Sorting Hat. Both of these things, creatures, whatever, would be privy to all of the goings-on in Dumbledore's study; I can really picture Dumbledore theorizing to Fawkes about Horcruxes. Well, maybe he hadn't gotten there yet--did he say something about the diary being his clue in HBP?--but still. Moreover, Harry is fighting Riddle, later the Lord Voldemort, trying to kill him, if possible--this is the obvious state of things to one who happens in. He begs the hat for help; the hat wants to help him kill Voldemort; it gives him a means not only to fight the basilisk but also to return Voldemort to a mortal state, a Horcrux. Maybe it's stretch, maybe it isn't. Your call. I just wanted to point out the possibility.

I agree with you that HBP is terrific, possibly one of her best. Wonderfully written, intricate, really just great all around. I am in awe of her skill. I wish I could be half as good.
And woot for Lupin and Tonks! I've been a secret-shipper for them, although I usually don't discuss these things. I was happy to see them canon, and to see all of my other relationship hunches fulfilled *grins*. They're two of my favorite characters.

I'm still not too sure how I feel about the whole Snape thing, but thank you to logically awakening me to other possibilities, my Queen *grins*. Snaps, kudos, and hats off to you. It is, admittedly, your number four that quite possibly puzzles me the most. That man is an enigma (albeit a greasy, slimey, treacherous(?), and loathsome one).

okay, done.

I doubt it is the sword. Seems to me that it would be one of those things totally uncorruptable by the dark arts.
something big is going to happen at the hollow though. That is too good a location for pathetic "i;m going to avenge my parents" dialogue.

this proabbyl makes no sense, but what if voldemort made harry's parent's bodies horcruxes and if they turn to inferi, harry wouldn't want to do anything to them. but that assumes that voldy understood the love harry would have for his parents. in any matter- im just throwing that one out there. i bet since ginny is such a gifted witch she will also help destroy a horcrux or 2 (maybe even the 7th, cuz she's 7th) neville can kill bellatrix, and harry kills voldy.

I think neville will have to flip a coin or two with Remus and Harry for Bellatrix.

About the parents thing--do you know that me and my sis were discussing that just a few nights ago? I think that his parents will almost definitely be inferi; about the horcrux thing, i'm undecided. It seems unwise to make a horcrux out of something as corruptable and mortal as a corpse; although their bones are a definite possibility. As anyone who has read even a smidgen of classical literature (and american lit as well) knows, burial sites are considered sacred; it would be just like voldemort to disregard that to his own advantage.
While i don't think that Voldy can really understand the love Harry has for his parents, he has enough of an intellectual grasp on it to use them, just as he used Sirius to lure Harry to the Department of Mysteries.

The seventh is Voldy himself, in the flesh; I think that Harry has to do that one alone. Then again, if love is what defeats him...

ooooh yeah. good point. well, ginny could dstroy nagini and maybe they both destroy voldy???
hmmm...

hhmmmmm indeed. I dunno.

This just occurred to me this afternoon while i was acquiring pigment (or cancer, depending on my luck): If Snape is loyal to Dumbledore and was a spy for the Order, why didn't he tell them that Peter was the traitor and not Sirius or Remus? Did his schoolboy grudge extend that far? I think less of the man the more I think of him, if you get what I mean.

As far as making his parents' bodies Horcruxes, when would Voldemort have had time? Immediately after killing Lily, he turned his wand on Harry. As we all know, the curse rebounded and he was, so far as he could be, destroyed. We know that the person making the Horcux must commit a murder while or shortly before making the Horcux (or at least that's the way it seemed to me, but I'm a little wonky tonight.) I believe he was planning to make the seventh one that night, but he lost his powers too soon. As far as coming back later and turning their bones into a Horcrux, I don't think he would do that. We know that Voldy liked his Horcruxes to be special. Meaning both a special object and a special murder. He wouldn't murder some plebe out by their graves just to make their remains into a Horcrux. Personally, I think he made the final Horcrux when he killed Ameila Bones, but, then, she's the only person I can remember that we KNOW he killed personally since he's been resurrected.

And now I'm going to bed. Cheers.

tickles- when i read that, i seriously got chills!! i'm not even kidding. what if harry is down and ginny is with him when he's trying to kill voldy and ginny-being the 7th- has to kill him, but in turn get's killed herself.. hmm.. idk..

there will be an edit

erm, chills? why?

mm- nice prediction. could be! but that would be so sad. oh well. i think it was sadder when sirius died than when dumbledore died.

I think so too. Sirius' death was simultaneously more shocking and unreal and too real all at once, while with Dumbledore, you expected him to die--he's old, and the venerable guide--and also considered him eternal. Also, Harry was just so upset at Sirius' death--it tore me up.

I think lette means intuitive chills?

i know! sirius was more down to earth and on harry's level than dumbledore, who always seemed to be at least partially a mystery.