War On/in Iraq, Lets Cause More Mayhem!!!

[Dragon_Warrior]

Keep hearing about people protesting to bring british troops home, but in an environment where suicide bombers and terrorists are rife, what would that achieve??

Not a lot at all, sure we'd have our troops home and sitting comfortably in the safety of their own homes, but then we'd be ignoring our duty in Iraq to help the people whose lives that we (may not for the better) have changed.

So what are ur views? Should we leave Iraq in a bigger mess then before, or stick it out, creating a better government and environment for all its citizens??

[Sorry just saw political section, could u move the topic for me please Ltz???]

[Lizzie-Chan]

What duty? I think that America and Britain should have just left Iraq alone in the first place. Many of the people there are actually worst off in terms of necessities and ammeities than they were before when Sudan was ruling. I'm not sticking up for Sudan, I think he was evil, but the situation's got worst.

And now? Well I think the Americans and British should be doing something, but sometimes I hear them shooting random people to look like they are "doing something". And I'm not so sure whether it's all true that they are helping. I mean, on the news, it shows that they are helping, but half of it looks like propoganda than anything else. I'm not entirely convinced that it's a "democracy" either...the Americans and Brits seem to be playing a huge hand in the elections as if the people can't handle themselves. They're not dumb!

[stuball71]

i think half the problem is that the people of iraq are used to being under the big stomping boot of oppresion now there in the touchy feely liberal "rule of international law" they do not know how democracy should work and all the diferent wants and frustrations of the various factions end up being shown in violence against each other and the police, army and occupational forces.its like somesort of medieval mentality its not the normal people either its the extremes, the minorities just like the minorities here who get there own way by democratic processes, lawyers, the european union courts etc. if us and the americans had gone stomping in like a bunch of nazis iraq would proboably running itself by now.
democracy doesn't seem to work as it should either way.
meritocracy anyone?

[Dragon_Warrior]

What?? I have to admit that changing a country from a dictatorship to a democracy, takes a long time, but isn't it worth it in the end? I mean would we in britain rather live in a dictatorship? I know I wouldn't and it means I don't get killed for expressing my views good or bad, which is something that is worth fighting for in my view, even if it is for someone else.

Things take a while to get better and anyone who thinks that Iraq should have been left alone, will probably see more results in the future. As they say Rome wasn't built in a day and things have to get worse before they get better, can we honestly say in a few years time when Iraq is fully established that it would have been better as a dictatorship?? I believe not, and if we had left Iraq alone, how many thousands more would have died, compared to the few already - a lot. The means maybe were wrong, but the ends will be worth it.

And yes, Iraqi's aren't dumb, but as stuball said, they don't fully know how a democracy works, so they will need lots of help, then when they see how it is done, will gain more independence.

Yes, you see soldiers helping and though it may be good news, the newspapers are always commenting on how Iraq is getting worse, adding their own 'it was wrong' propoganda to the whole mix, so whoever you want to listen to, the view will be bias, in history we learn to take the sources with a pinch of scepticism, even if they are good or bad. I'm afraid this is what we have to do with the information from Iraq, so it can be hard to figure out what is going on unless we visit the area for ourselves.

[Lizzie-Chan]

Well apparently the Iraqis almost ousted Sudan at one time, but the Americans intervened and stopped them from overthrowing their dictator. And this is, apparently, because they were still selling weapons to Sudan and therefore just wanted to benefit. Well now they've done that, they thought it was time to get the oil from the oil wells. I heard that as soon as they had stepped in to Iraq, they went pumped the oil out or burnt it etc.

Also, Al Jezera (spl? Sorry) and various others told them the Americans NOT to aim for where they were filming, but the Americans still went and bombed the place where they said not to attack, just because Al Jezera weren't praising the Americans. They weren't saying that Sudan was great or anything, but they were saying that the way the Americans went about the whole thing and not securing safety in the streets etc. was not very good. One of the reputable reporters of that station got killed, and the entire community was mad about it, keening and everything.

That's my 2 cents for today.

[stuball71]

yeah the americans threw money and arms to saddams iraq when they went to war with iran when the ayotolla khomanie's supporters (sorry for any crap spelling)had overthrown the shar(king) of iran and turned it into a islamist state in the 80's then the russians supplied them when the u.s decided they were baddies! saddam must have enjoyed playing them both of against each other,personaly i think that having the 4th largest army in the world in the most volatile and oil rich area in the world was the reason for the 1st iraq war and the realisation that saddam wouldn't quietly disappear into obscurity was the real reason for the 2nd one

[Lizzie-Chan]

I also think that the British government are silly. So called "saving" the Iraqi people when they can't even maintain their own kingdom i.e. haven't solved Ireland dispute, NHS, rail, school, bus and other public amenities are crud.

[stuball71]

i must agree this country's goverment is a joke they lie they cheat,they resign,and then are reinstated to there ministerial post or eu posts. there incompetence is unbelievable the prisons are over crowded(must be all the pensioners who won't pay there council tax and the speeding motorists) so instead of building more prisons they'll let the criminals out early!!its not like they couldn't afford it all the
various taxes they extort out of us, they tax us when we earn it tax us when we spend it and tax us when we save it. i know what if we pay tax if we steal it thus avoiding prison and solving prison overcrowding, i am a genius!!!!!!!!
theres more managers in the nhs than nurses,this can't be right.

[Dragon_Warrior]

Well no one said England was great, but it's not like it's the governments fault for speeders, just not stopping all of them. I have to admit that conditions aren't great, but actually from the £400 billion that the country gets from taxes, the number one thing it is spent on is pensions for the old - one of the drawbacks of an ageing population, the other top 5 I think are transport, schools, hospitals and something else I can't remember........

I can hardly say that motives and tactics in Iraq were great, especially with an american gorilla leading it, but Iraq may benefit..... in time. I have to agree though that America are just truly mashing up what could be a slightly better country at the moment, with their stupidity/arrogance/power.

Also, in no way can abusing a country then helping it be acceptable, but America is just trying to look out for number 1, so there is no chance that will change soon. Look at the tsunami disaster, the British public gave more then the American Government, then the hurricanes hit America and they were soon srambling for help, sometimes America deserves what it gets, but what it did before to Iraq I have to agree was wrong.

[Lizzie-Chan]

I agree that the so-called "concept" was good, but in the first place, it shouldn't be America doing it as they have their own ulterior motives. It's like that "School Children for Children" campaign, where kids would run for sometime, let's say a lunchtime, and pay a pound plus sponser money to African children. A whole FIFTY percent was planned to go to the local school's PE department, which is a private and very rich school. Thankfully, some brave students said that wasn't right and suprisingly, I think they got their way and all the money was sent to charity. That's what America is doing. Also, Bushy boy's family has lots of oil companies. I don't think it's much of a coincidence that they're thinking about invading oil-rich countries and have oil companies under their belt. In fact, Bush, or some of Bush's boys, said that they should invade, or "help", all Middle Eastern countries. Now America is on good terms with Israel, so when the reporter asked them "Are you going to get Israel?" they went quiet. Pfft.

Also, this government is rubbish. If you ever go to Malaysia you only need to walk in to the airport to see that this government knows how to spend its money. It is GIGANTIC and way cleaner than crappy Heathrow. I remember last time we needed to get to Terminal 4, and we had to walk round the block! Literally, corridors upon corridors to get there, and it is hard work having just gotten off a plane and then having to push your trolley UP a ramp. And what's even worst is that Malaysia is quite a bit poorer than England. Of course, Malaysia has its own faults, but in terms of public ammenities, it's quite a bit better. :/

[Dragon_Warrior]

That's because it mainly relies on tourism, whereas England is less tourist centred, while also having more of a population to cope with, who claim benefits.

But yes, America is a greedy, ugly, beast, lead by a power crazed idiot, with the inabilities of new born calf (but not nearly as cute ) But until Britain stops following America like a lost puppy, then we probably won't see any results.

[Lizzie-Chan]

If you are talking about Malaysia being tourist-based, it's not that tourist-based at all. Anyway that' just a stupid excuse for all teh government's faults.

Anyway, I don't think half of Iraq wanted someone to storm in. The lot on the front coastal part said they would defend their country, so obviously they didn't want some stupid yankies with half a brain to get em.

[Dragon_Warrior]

Well it's not like anyone could stop America anyway...... They're just too damn powerful for their own good.....

[Dan]

You think Bush is after oil? Unfortunately it is far worse than that!
He is doing it because god told him to!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressrele...r/06/bush.shtml
Nabil Shaath says: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, "George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan." And I did, and then God would tell me, "George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq …" And I did. And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, "Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East." And by God I'm gonna do it.'"
Blair is also quite religious. The British people don't really believe in god and will never understand how they think! However people must agree with this Labour government as they were voted back in!

The reason we have crap airports is that no one wants a new one in their back yard. Thus extra terminals and run ways are crammed into the old airports. A site just outside the village of Wing was suggested for a new Airport and people were protesting! The Malaysian police would know how to sort out these types of protests!

Britain government may be many things but I would hesitate to hold up Malaysia as an example of good government unless you approve of corruption, cronyism and the suppression of the freedom of speech. However many people might like our Deputy Prime minister, John Prescott, throw in jail on apparently trumped up charges of homosexuality.

Sadam killed thousands of his people. While many people may now be worse off than under his dictatorship they are better off than the Kurdish men, woman and children he gassed.

[Dragon_Warrior]

But they no longer live in a military hell...... There was an old world war poem, that said the young remain forever, while we wither away, or something like that. Sometimes, death is better then poor life, but now hopefully there will be no more death in Iraq, from opressive rulers.