Since I don't remember all of your times, I will start with a black scores list, this doesn't mean your score doesn't count, it means you'll have to post a link with the video in it as proof, and a time.

As for some levels such as the Clock Tower, Basement, Dungeon, and Trouble 3 have multiple exits/entrances, which makes it hard to judge, so I need ideas on that.

My Idea for those levels:

Clock Tower - Black Forest exit.
Basement - From Dungeon to Ante Room.
Dungeon - From falling in.
Trouble 3 - From Walking in.
Trouble 2 - Walking in.
Trouble 1 - Walking in.



Dark Castle

• Beginner:

Shield 1:
Shield 2:
Shield 3:
Shield 4:
Fireball 1:
Fireball 2:
Fireball 3:
Fireball 4:
Trouble 1:
Trouble 2:
Trouble 3:
Black Knight 1: 0:28 - Swipe Video
Black Knight 2: 0:18 - Swipe Video
Black Knight 3: 0:34 - Swipe Video

• Intermediate:

Shield 1:
Shield 2:
Shield 3:
Shield 4:
Fireball 1:
Fireball 2:
Fireball 3:
Fireball 4:
Trouble 1:
Trouble 2:
Trouble 3:
Black Knight 1:
Black Knight 2:
Black Knight 3: 0:36 - Richard (No Shield/Fireball) - Video

• Advanced:

Shield 1: 0:16 - Action Jack - Video
Shield 2: 0:03 - Richard - Video
Shield 3: 0:09 - Action Jack - Video
Shield 4: 0:17 - Richard - Video
Fireball 1: 0:11 - Richard - Video
Fireball 2: 0:18 - Richard - Video
Fireball 3: 0:40 - Richard - Video
Fireball 4: 1:15 - Richard - Video
Trouble 1: 0:23 - Action Jack - Video
Trouble 2: 0:09 - Richard - Video
Trouble 3: 0:52 - Richard - Video
Black Knight 1: 0:49 - Richard - Video
Black Knight 2: 0:38 - Richard - Video
Black Knight 3: 1:00 - Richard - Video


Beyond Dark Castle

• Beginner:

Computer Room:
Clock Tower:
Swamp:
Black Forest:
Black Knight's Brewery:
East Labyrinth:
East Tower Top:
West Tower Wall: 0:30 - Richard - Video
West Labyrinth: 2:17 - Richard - Video
West Tower Top: 1:26 - Richard - Video
Basement:
Catacombs:
Dungeon:
Black Knight Showdown/Final Battle:

• Intermediate:

Computer Room:
Clock Tower:
Swamp:
Black Forest:
Black Knight's Brewery:
East Labyrinth:
East Tower Top:
West Tower Wall:
West Labyrinth:
West Tower Top:
Basement:
Catacombs:
Dungeon:
Black Knight Showdown/Final Battle:

• Advanced:

Computer Room:
Clock Tower:
Swamp:
Black Forest:
Black Knight's Brewery:
East Labyrinth:
East Tower Top:
West Tower Wall:
West Labyrinth:
West Tower Top:
Basement:
Catacombs:
Dungeon:
Black Knight Showdown/Final Battle: 0:39 - izdale - Video


Level Path Runs:


Dark Castle

• Beginner:

Shield Run:
Fireball Run:
Trouble Run:
Black Knight Run:
Black Knight Run (No Shield/Fireball): 1:30 - swipe - Video
Full Game Run: 6:57 - Richard - Video

• Intermediate:

Shield Run:
Fireball Run:
Trouble Run:
Black Knight Run:
Full Game Run:

• Advanced:

Shield Run: 1:10 - Action Jack - Video
Fireball Run: 2:32 - Richard - Video
Trouble Run: 2:14 - Richard - Video
Black Knight Run: 2:35 - Richard - Video
Full Game Run: 8:04 - Richard - Video

Beyond Dark Castle:

• Beginner:

Swamp Orb Run:
Black Forest Orb Run:
East Tower Orb Run:
West Tower Orb Run: 4:26 - Richard -Video
Catacombs Orb Run:
Black Knight Endgame Run:

• Intermediate:

Swamp Orb Run:
Black Forest Orb Run:
East Tower Orb Run:
West Tower Orb Run:
Catacombs Orb Run:
Black Knight Endgame Run:

• Advanced:

Swamp Orb Run:
Black Forest Orb Run:
East Tower Orb Run:
West Tower Orb Run:
Catacombs Orb Run:
Black Knight Endgame Run:



Full Game Runs - Scores:


Dark Castle:


• Beginner:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

• Intermediate:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

• Advanced:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

Beyond Dark Castle:

• Beginner:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

• Intermediate:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

• Advanced:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

I think perhaps it would be better to make them item runs rather than individual rooms - it takes the problem of multiple entrances out too:

Suggest:

DC: (all of these should be timed from the moment the great hall appears to the moment the great hall reappears on completion)

Trouble Run
Fireball Run - problematic, because of luck with the wizard's chains
Shield Run
Back Knight Run - should end on landing in Trouble 3
Trouble escape - (not necessarily after BK, but can be) start from the trouble 3 screen being drawn, end on return to the great hall.
Game Run - one of each of the top 4 above, first three in any order, but a drop into trouble doesn't count as a trouble run, you have to pick the door

You might want to separate out based on what upgrades players have before starting the run - e.g. a trouble run with fireballs is always going to be slightly faster than trouble without - at least on higher levels!

BDC:

Runs for each orb - timed from the central lowest orb pedestal in the great hall to returning to the great hall. The shield/fireball orbs should also include getting the relevant upgrade.

Dungeon escape - Could also do a run from falling in the dungeon to getting back to the great hall like trouble 3, however I think this is largely pointless as it is governed far too much by whether you need the keys there, and how lucky you are with the door.


I also propose the following time penalties for all runs (both DC and BDC):

30 seconds per death.
3 seconds per lost elixir.

I like the elixir penalty, but I think death is punishment enough- having to start the level over, plus the four or five seconds spent waiting for Duncan to be revived, should be enough to discourage the "not to be" side of the great debate.

Okay, you're right in that there is a probably big enough penalty in having to do it again in dying. Can I extend the elixir penalty to also cover any painful but non-fatal hit in BDC? e.g. getting bitten by snake or rat/bat without an elixir.. Unless of course the contact does actually kill, in which case you just pay the retry penalty?

Yeah, that's fair. But I think in the case of snakes, it should be once per slip-up, since a snake will deliver three or four bites in the time it takes to use one elixir.

The great hall idea is good for the Level Path Runs.

I added Level Path Runs.

I think they should all be started with a new game, though I know getting to shield 4 with out any power ups in impossible I don't think it matters all that much.

About the loosing time for dying and loosing elixirs... I dunno, it's kinda annoying to keep track right? I dunno, I think it's fine the way it is, but if it's what people want.

seems reasonable.

I had a go at beginner BDC, did both towers and one of the copter levels, and then got bored. I can say I did WTW in 0:30, The West labyrinth in 1:28, and WTT in 1:31 (but the beams were going in the wrong direction :( ). Total time from beginning of great hall to re-appearance was 4:28 - the remaining 30 seconds or so were the navigation of the great hall to the WTT door, and the time taken in black-out transition between rooms.

I don't think any of those are as fast as they could be, and the video IMHO is too dull for me to bother YouTube-ing. Maybe I'll try them again on advanced.

The East side took BKB: 0:28s, East Laby: 2:16 (I couldn't remember the way round ;) ) ETT: 0:56 - total time of 4:14.

Black Forest copter level: CR: 0:26, CT: 0:30, BF: 1:31 - total time 2:41

At that point, I got bored.

iI then did black Knight Showdown on Advanced in 0:49 - or 0:58 if you count 3x3 time penalties... But we haven't decided that yet, so I'll go with the raw time for now. :) That at least is marginally entertaining to watch, if only because it's quick, so ....Observe the BDC Advanced Shin No Noir ^_^

well, I'd like videos for each score I put down, just so I have proof.

Also, Richard, you now have the first high score.

I was also wondering if we should have any different things for people who beat the Black Knight with no shield or something.

That's okay, but I really can't be bothered to upload the videos - it takes too long to process them all, plus it would be nice to see some other names up there. ;) So I'll leave them as guide times for those who are interested.

Also though, as those guides show, it won't be possible to you-tube a video with a BDC run - even if you were to knock say 20% off my times (which I doubt people will do for copter levels or the West side)...

So even if people did manage to do that, we've got about West 4mins + East 4 mins + Copts 5mins, + Catacombs 3mins + Black Knight 1 min = 17 mins roughly. Cut 20%, that's still 14.5mins which I think is almost certainly unobtainable - and that's on beginner.

Videos do not prove that you didn't stop recording, sneak into the computer room and save, then go back and start recording again... And if you're just relying on our integrity there, you could always believe the times we quote anyways ;)


Anyways, thanks for accepting my `score'. You could feel free to populate the relevant sections of the DC side based on my various other films, if you want :) I'm a little confused about the difference between Black Knight Only Run and Black Knight Run are?

Also the difference between Black Knight Endgame Run and the actual score for the room: Black Knight Showdown/Final Battle since there is only one room there?

[Edit - I had a minor change of heart, here's the link to the west tower walkthrough - since the WTW itself I felt was done quite quickly]

Woops, I messed up

what do people think the top ten should feature? Whole game, or just end game?

EDIT: Richard now you hold more scores!

The Shin no Noir is back again, I reposted a better Advanced BK3 video and deleted the old one - down to 49secs (I've edited my previous post, but the link is just here if you're too lazy to scroll up ;)

I've incorporated most, if not all the high scores found in the speed ruins in the forum.

Wow, thanks for taking the time.

I'll dissect my beginner run and the fireball and BK run from the advanced run-throughs ones and post those times to save you some effort!

No problem, I'm glad you like it :)

A new speed run for you:

No deaths, no elixirs, under a minute...

Advanced Shield in 57 secs

[edit - uploaded again due to the first one being glitchy]

Once again: that's effin' NUTS!!! :o

IIMSSMS, I liked my bat shooting in the tower best B)

WOW!! And you did it without using any glitches, nice!! I get you could do it even faster if you didn't stop for rocks either because you had more than enough when you were done.

probably - but as I say, I was going for a whole game no-elixir run, not particularly focused on speed - it just turned out that way, so I had something to salvage from an otherwise failed attempt :)

That last rat in Shield 3 almost had you, but dang man, good job!

I will put the scores up when I'm not so tired.

I did a speed run of trouble-2 for you (going back towards the great hall). This is the definitive advanced (no-elixir used) version - it's impossible to do it any faster (or so I claim).

If only I could jump faster

[edit - video re-uploaded due to glitchy codec]

actually, it looks like action has the same record as you.

added some more records of Richard's on.

I have yet to tackle the BDC thing.

Not going in that direction ;) - although now you've seen it anyone can else could do that too, since this way is fool proof on any level. (Well, there's a small chance you may loose an elixir)

hmm, should I put 2 records up?

well... mine is fractionally faster anyways - you can Action leaves with a bonus of 3810 going towards Trouble 3, and 3790 on the return trip, whilst I have 3840 - just faster than both:)

Equally on Shield 3 - I have 3850 on the bonus clock vs his 3840 and a lost elixir ;) muahaha.

But if we're doing accuracy in seconds then we're equal - It's up to you.

Edit- I just timed it, and the timer drops in half-second intervals (of 10 points) - which is odd, because that would make it look like I was 1.5 seconds faster in trouble-2, but both `appear' to take 9 seconds, so I checked his video again. I suppose it depends where you start timing from, but to me he starts trouble 2 at 23s and leaves at 33s which means roughly 10 seconds. Since YouTube's clock is only to the nearest second that leaves up to a second's inaccuracy on bother sides of the measurement which is pretty bad when comparing short times anyway. :) Effectively the time could have been anything between 23.9999 enter and 33.0 leave - making effectively 9 seconds, or 23.0 enter and 33.9999 exit, making effectively 11!

Conclusion - it's probably better to go on tick count for short individual room times.

O_O my brain asplode

lol

Simple maths really

YouTube's clock only shows seconds, so assuming that the clock shows 23 seconds when Action starts trouble-2, that could mean any time from 23.0 seconds, right up utill 23.99999999999 seconds - at which point the clock will show still show 23 seconds.

Equally if he leaves when it says 33 seconds, that is any time from 33.0 to 33.99999999.

So if you consider the extremes, this basically means that the attempt took anywhere between

~9 seconds (33.0-23.999999999) and
~11 seconds (33.9999999-23.0)

Going by the bonus tick-count though, the bonus always starts at the same position (4000 on advanced) for everyone, so there is no error there. We also know it drops in half second intervals by 10.

So - Action's going out time was 3810 - so that means it took him (4000-3810)/10 = 19 drops of the clock, which implies 19*0.5 seconds = 9.5 seconds. Since the final time is inaccurate by up to .5 of a second, it could have taken any amount of time between 9.5 and 9.999999 seconds.

His return time out was 3790 - so that it means it took (4000-3790)/10 = 21 drops of the clock, which implies 21*0.5 seconds = 10.5 seconds. Again, factoring inaccuracy, that is somewhere between 10.5 and 10.9999 seconds.

My time was 3840 - so that means it took (4000-3840) = 16 drops of the clock, which implies 16*0.5 seconds = 8 seconds. Factoring inaccuracy, that is somewhere between 8.0 and 8.499999 seconds.

So as I was saying, for short individual room runs, using the bonus timer is much more accurate than using the wall-clock.

(explained like a true computer-scientist)

The quick formula for time taken then is (<bonus-start>-<bonus-out>)/20 seconds, with an inaccuracy of at worst, +0.49999 seconds. (i.e. it really taking not quite half a second longer than you think)

okay, I STILL don't get it, do you want to just hold the high score spot? :wacko:

I don't really mind (I can see my run is faster, if I did) I'm more interested as to which bit you don't get...

Did you never do rounding/error-bars in maths?

Example

Supposing you are running the hundred meters race for example - and you hit start on your stop-watch, and hit sop when you cross the line. Let's ignore the time it takes for you to actually press the start and stop buttons, and just pretend you can do it instantaneously.

So supposing your stopwatch says 00:09.56 - being minutes:seconds.centi-seconds.

You know you ran the hundred meters in 9.56 seconds.
Actually, you don't, because your watch is only accurate to 1/100 of a second.

If you really ran it in 00:09.5699 seconds, your watch doesn't have that decimal place, so all you see is 00:09:56. Speed = Distance/Time, so in your calculations you were running at 100/9.56 = 10.460m/s (rounding to 3 decimal places). However, if you take the `real' time of 9.569 seconds, we find you actually ran at 100/9.5699 = 10.449m/s. - So you can see you were inaccurate at the 2nd decimal point.

No really big deal, in fact, the limit of the error is 100/9.5699999999... (being the largest time the watch would still show 00:09.56 for) or effectively 100/9.57 which is 10.449320794148[...]m/s - and you can see that that is the same to 3DP as 10.449 we had before - but not the same as your initial value which looked quite a bit better - 10.460m/s.

Now let us assume that your stopwatch was accurate only to the second (like the YouTube / Quicktime player clock).

You therefore have timed yourself as 9 seconds because 9.56 < 10, so the clock hasn't hit 10 yet.

Now you think your speed is actually 100/9 = 11.1[...]m/s - horribly wrong.

So (hopefully) you can see that you *could* have an error bar of up to one of whatever the finest unit of your measurement is time wise, which then translates into an error in your calculation of your speed...

...pause for breath...

Now supposing you are running a circular race 100m a time, and you are using the lap function to have a quick check of your laps half way through. `Lap' pauses the display of your watch so you can record the time without actually stopping it.

So you start at the beginning with 0 secs (no inaccuracy there). You read your first lap as 9.89s, and the total time as 19.01s

Which lap was quicker? Well, With your watch as accurate as you have it (1/100 second) you can see that the first lap took 9.89s and the second took 19.01-9.89 = 9.12 seconds. Hurrah, you sprint finished, and got the second lap done quicker.

BUT
If your watch was only accurate to the second, you would read the times as 9s and 19s respectively, meaning you thought that the lap times were 9 and 19-9 = 10s respectively! So your sprint finish didn't help - you would think you got slower!

So do you see how the error bars can be cumulative?

With a watch that only does seconds, you might be up to a second later than you thought clocking in each lap. This means that there is a range of up to 2 seconds (1s on each time).

-- getting back to DC --

So if you use a You-Tube video's lengh to consider the speed of the room - then unless the video starts at exactly the time you want to start the clock (which in the discussed example last post, neither mine not Action's does) then you have to take a reading for the start time, and then an equal reading for the end time. The player clock is accurate to the second, so you have a 1 second inaccuracy on both times - meaning you could get the time as much as 2 seconds wrong.

However, if you use DC's bonus timer as the clock, the DC starts that for you at exactly the correct `time' - the maximum bonus allowed. You then need to only take the measurement when the player leaves the room.

This has two advantages

1 - Only one error bar - at the finish time
2 - the clock drops twice a second - so your accuracy is to half a second - twice as good as the wall-clock.

So over-all your error-range is only 1/4 of the size of the wall-clock - - half as many errors, and each one (the only one) is half as wide. So instead of a 2-second long error window, you actually only have a 1/2 second error window.


Happy? :)

Yeah I think I get it, though it's a lot of text, oh, well you're on there now instead of Action.

hurrah, I have the longest post :)

So out of curiosity - what do/did people study at university here - actually, I'll move this to an off-topic later - but I'm quite interested in the demographic for DC players. e.g. Are we all scientists or all artists, or a mixture...

I am still in high school :P (is anyone really surprised?)

I am!

Also, I think I might have outdone Richard's Trouble Run record.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2x9u78TWvd4...related&search=

It's a two-parter, but they should add up to 2:08.

I didn't realise I was down for an entire trouble speed run. But either way, that's fighting talk ;)

I'll take you 2:08 and raise you 0:04.

There's still room for you to come back though - that's not the fastest I've done any of the rooms - but stringing all-out speed runs together in front of the camera is very difficult!

I reckon breaking the 2min barrier is possible.

So, can you beat 2:04? :D

[n.b. the vide has 3 extra seconds at the beginning and 1 at the end compared to yours, which doesn't include the great hall]

Nice work!

Maybe I can beat 2:04, maybe I can't. We won't know for quite some time to come, though, as I got a little burned out on Dark Castle making my first batch of videos. Which is just as well seeing as how my only reliable movie-recording software crapped out on me.

What are you using, by the way?

Action & Richard: Great Trouble runs. I would love to see the two of you pressing each other to the limit.

And, as Action asked, what recording software do you use, Richard?

Snapz? or something else?

I use ambrosia's snapz pro. With £ vs $ at the moment, it isn't really very expensive - and definitely a very well behaved piece of software

edit - additional - I'm off back to the UK now, so will be offline for the best part of 20 hours unless they have wireless in the airports I'm going through...