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Title: CNN Special on Islam
Description: Tonight at 8


FacistFalangistFool - January 21, 2007 07:19 PM (GMT)
If you guys can, I would suggest watching a CNN special on tonight. Called "The War Within", it is going to duscuss how Islam breeds terror right here among us in the free world using freedom of speech as their cover.

QUOTE
In our investigation, we found shocking evidence of the bigotry, intolerance and hatred preached by some Muslim fundamentalists in the UK.
she said, continuing with:
QUOTE
We met men like Anjem Choudary of the now-banned Al-Mahajiroon extremist group, who denounces democracy and predicts Britain will be ruled by Sharia, Islamic law
.

For a sneak peak, Check here and here for two topics that will be discussed in the special. Second one is a slide show. Even if the first doesn't work video-wise, just listen. It wasn't working for me before.

"Do you not believe in democracy?" Amanpour asked an extremist, and one of the most praised Muslims in Britain.

"No I do not," he replies, "the world must live under Allah's law."

Bahra - January 21, 2007 11:20 PM (GMT)
Excellent. I'll be sure to watch it. Unfortunately only you and I will watch it, Falangistfool, and we don't need to because we already know. I hope it shows Islam's true face that Americans choose to ignore.

And that British man was right. They can stand in front of the Cathedral and protests but if Christians did the same Muslims would be able to say they are inciting racism and, as he said, best scenario be carried off by police for it or worst case be jumped by some extremist gangs.

Wake up, America. Don't turn a blind eye to Islam. For all our sakes.

FacistFalangistFool - January 21, 2007 11:26 PM (GMT)
Isn't that the truth. But you can only lead a horse to the water, you can't make him drink. And as a friend of mine once said, you can lead a blind horse to the water, and he will never even know it is there.

Bahra - January 22, 2007 03:25 AM (GMT)
I watched the whole thing, and I must say I am a little disappointed at the portrayal of British Muslims. The media STILL cannot concede to admit that a majority of Muslims, not the "vast majority" as many of the interviewed believed or lied to tell you, are more like the radical clerics you saw. The more moderate ones you saw are the minority. They only think they are the majority.

ANd it is only working to the true Islam's benefit.

However, it did get its point across about the extremist part, at least, and showed how handicapped the british people are in doing anything about it.

Patriot76 - January 22, 2007 08:50 PM (GMT)
I too watched it and found it to be what I knew all along, the truth (in part).

What did you think about the scene one one non-radical Muslim said Islam was a religion of violence and the crowd semed shocked. A radical Muslim said that the koran was just being interpreted wrong, but the non-radical proceeded to read a direct quote from the Korn advocating violence.

Your right though Bahra, the people who should have watched it didn't and the people who didn't did. When in the Koran, it is written specifically to punish all those not following Allah, how can people say they are harmless?

At least it seemed that the women were upset with the strict second class women treatment. There seemed to be a small chink in the armor that is radical vs. non-radical Muslims. Hopefully, that chink would become a chasm.

Orborde - January 23, 2007 03:48 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Patriot76 @ Jan 22 2007, 04:50 PM)
A radical Muslim said that the koran was just being interpreted wrong, but the non-radical proceeded to read a direct quote from the Korn advocating violence.

Your right though Bahra, the people who should have watched it didn't and the people who didn't did. When in the Koran, it is written specifically to punish all those not following Allah, how can people say they are harmless?

Have you ever read the Bible, by any chance?

Nemo Me Impune Lacessit - January 23, 2007 04:32 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Orborde @ Jan 23 2007, 03:48 AM)

Have you ever read the Bible, by any chance?

Very true, all religions hold to that concept, and can tolerate violence under such conditions as holy wars, I've read, in the Koran, that Muslims should leave those who don't follow their religion alone for they will receive their punishment after death, this does not condone murder, also murder for the sake of murder is condemned in all just about all religions, if anyone ever read the Koran they would see the same thing.

FacistFalangistFool - January 23, 2007 08:25 PM (GMT)
Murder of "infidels" is not condemned in the Koran. A few segments from the Koran where murder of infidels is ENCOURAGED:

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"Strike off their [infidel's] heads. Strike off their finger-tips! because they defied Allah and his Apostle [Muhammad]." (Sura 8:12-13)

"Make war on them [infidels] until idolatry shall cease and Allah's religion shall reign supreme." (Sura 2:193)

"Seize them and put them to death wherever you find them." (Sura 4:89)

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you." (Sura 9:123)

"When the sacred months [Ramadan] are over, slay the infidels wherever you find them. Arrest them; besiege them; and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent [convert to Islam] and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way." (Sura 9:5)


I do have a copy of the Koran I purchased for myself in order to make sure that I was not simply taking this information from a site that may or may not be reliable. They are there. The Bible, on the other hand, CONDEMNS VIOLENCE and states CLEARLY that all should be forgiven and that no matter what religion somebody else is, they should be respected and they are still God's people, that simply must find their way on their own time. I would like you, Orbode, to find sources to your "hot air". What happened to everyone should post sources? Find me some verses in the Bible that come out and say "slay anyone who doesn't believe in God." You won't. The Bible does say "Eye for an Eye" in the Old Testament. However, this was revoked by Jesus and condemned in the New Testament. Christians even removed their own violence. And even that is only when someone had done a violent deed to you first, whileas in the Koran, it is simply for "not following Allah's ways."

Orborde - January 24, 2007 03:14 AM (GMT)
FacistFalangistFool: I notice that those are all from one book of the Koran. Did you just pick the most violently intolerant book you could find?

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While the Israelites were camped at Acacia, some of the men defiled themselves by sleeping with the local Moabite women.  These women invited them to attend sacrifices to their gods, and soon the Israelites were feasting with them and worshiping the gods of Moab.  Before long Israel was joining in the worship of Baal of Peor, causing the LORD's anger to blaze against his people.  The LORD issued the following command to Moses: "Seize all the ringleaders and execute them before the LORD in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn away from the people of Israel."  So Moses ordered Israel's judges to execute everyone who had joined in worshiping Baal of Peor.  Just then one of the Israelite men brought a Midianite woman into the camp, right before the eyes of Moses and all the people, as they were weeping at the entrance of the Tabernacle.  When Phinehas son of Eleazar and grandson of Aaron the priest saw this, he jumped up and left the assembly.  Then he took a spear and rushed after the man into his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man's body and into the woman's stomach.  So the plague against the Israelites was stopped, but not before 24,000 people had died. (Numbers 25:1-9)

If your enemy be hungry, give him food to eat, if he be thirsty, give him to drink; For live coals you will heap on his head, and the Lord will vindicate you.  (Proverbs 25:21-22)

Let the praises of God be in their mouths, and a sharp sword in their hands to execute vengeance on the nations and punishment on the peoples, to bind their kings with shackles and their leaders with iron chains, to execute the judgment written against them.  This is the glory of his faithful ones.  Praise the LORD! (Psalms 149:5-9)

The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever.  It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy.  Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy.  Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community.  Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest.  I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.'  (Exodus 31:12-15)

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21)

Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood.  (Jeremiah 48:10)

"Do not be afraid or discouraged.  Take the entire army and attack Ai, for I have given to you the king of Ai, his people, his city, and his land.  You will destroy them as you destroyed Jericho and its king." (Joshua 8:1-3)

The men of Israel withdrew through the territory of the Benjaminites, putting to the sword the inhabitants of the city, the livestock, and all they chanced upon.  Moreover they destroyed by fire all the cities they came upon. (Judges 20:48)

(Moses) stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, "All of you who are on the LORD's side, come over here and join me." And all the Levites came.  He told them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors."  The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day.  Then Moses told the Levites, "Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing."  (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)

And these are just the ones (sorted out from here) that directly condone killing people not of your religion or nationality. Take a look at that site, and you will see that there is a LOT of violence in the Bible; it condones killing gays, adulterers, ungrateful children, and a whole lot of other people.

Admittedly, most of it is in the Old Testament, but if it's no longer part of Christianity, why is it there? You personally may ignore most of the Old Testament, but a lot of Christians still make a big deal out of it; you do not speak for all Christians' beliefs.

Further, the New Testament still didn't stop the Crusades or other genocides of non-Christians over the ages. Why do you expect me to believe that its presence has ever made any difference?

Christianity and Islam are pretty much even on the "violent holy texts" front, so I wish people would stop claiming that Islam is inherently more violent than Christianity on the basis of their texts. As I said: You think the Koran is bad? Have you ever read the Bible?

FacistFalangistFool - January 24, 2007 08:45 PM (GMT)
AS you said yourself, all of those quotes are from the Old Testament. The Old Testament is ridden with violence, yes. However, you apparently do not understand the inherent beliefs of Christianity.

The New Testament, Jesus's life and HIS teachings, are the FUNDAMENTAL preachings of Christianity. The Old Testamant is a "prologue", so to speak. Jesus, as the New Testament sais, dies for our sins. He dies so that no longer would God put to death people because of all of these different things. He died so that men could sin and be forgiven. His tale is the tale of modern Christianity of forgiveness and preachings of tolerance. The saying "What would Jesus do?" is completely valid and used by many Christians: and the fact is, no matter what harm people inflicted on Jesus he NEVER resorted to violence.

The New Testament, consequently, ends the Bible's violence in the Old Testament and even condemns it. Jesus preaches "Love Thy Neigbor as you would like to be loved" and "forgiveness." All Christians follow the teachings of the New Testament. The Old Testament is there so that we realize what life was like before Jesus died for our sins.

Secondly, the Old Testament, the OLDER version of the Bible, was altered once the New Testament came along to make the religion much less extreme. Now the Quran has two parts (books, if you will) to it as well. The Book of Mecca, the first Islamic book, and the Book of Medina. Sometimes they are presented as two seperate forms of the actual Qu'ran, but in reality they are simply two "testaments". Mohammed was first revealed the book of Mecca, according to Islam. The Book of Mecca is a more peaceful book, that can be directly correlated to the Old Testament. They are very similar and compared to the Book of Medina is VERY peaceful. This, the first teachings of Islam, is the part that Muslims show us on TV. The "Religion of Peace." And truly, if this was Islam's only book, it would be the religion of peace.

However, The Book of Medina, Mohammed's newer revelations, is extremely violent. All of the Suras that I presented are from the Book of Medina, which is the newer book. It begins to discuss infidels in more detail and such. My point? The Bible went from violence to tolerance, the Qu'ran went backwards.

Sura is not a segment. It means "chapter" in the Koran. Every section is called a Sura. It's not like "John" or "Romans" if that is what you were thinking.

And the Crusades was started by some greedy kings and a greedy Pope, seeking treasures from the "Holy Land" and wanting to extort travelers who went there for taxes to pray and visit and such. In no way are crusades advocated in the New Testament. And it may even be a stretch to say the Old Testament does.

Source.

And by the way, getting your information from a site called "evilbible.com" is sure to be somewhat biased. So, as I have said, the basic teachings of christianity are not, as you say, to teach people to act as in the Old Testament. It is to show people how harsh God was prior to Jesus's death, and once Jesus died how it saved people from their sins and no longer would violence be used to achieve ends in the Christian religion. It is apparent you were not very well educated in Christian teachings. So, I ask you. Have you read the Bible?

Patriot76 - January 24, 2007 09:54 PM (GMT)
all vallid points.

Nemo Me Impune Lacessit - January 26, 2007 04:34 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (FacistFalangistFool @ Jan 24 2007, 08:45 PM)
The New Testament, Jesus's life and HIS teachings, are the FUNDAMENTAL preachings of Christianity.

The New Testament, consequently, ends the Bible's violence in the Old Testament and even condemns it.

All Christians follow the teachings of the New Testament. The Old Testament is there so that we realize what life was like before Jesus died for our sins.

Secondly, the Old Testament, the OLDER version of the Bible, was altered once the New Testament came along to make the religion much less extreme.

It begins to discuss infidels in more detail and such. My point? The Bible went from violence to tolerance, the Qu'ran went backwards.

It is apparent you were not very well educated in Christian teachings. So, I ask you. Have you read the Bible?

The old testament, wouldn't it have been teachings to the people directly from God then? And the Bible is the inspired word of God which includes not only the new testament but also the old one, simply because it emphasizes the role of Jesus as a savior, doesn't mean that only the new testament contains the fundamental teachings of Christianity. The ten commandments were forged in the old testament were they not? It's there that God forged his covenant with man correct? You shouldn't just base everything that happened after the birth of Jesus to be valid and then just rule out all the violent parts you read in the old testament.

Ever read the book of revelations? It's been awhile but it speaks of the end of the world so-to-speak, if you ever read it you would see how violent that is, though I'm not sure which testament it's in seeing as how it predicts the end of the world in extremely violent ways, it looks like the Bible is not done with not only preaching violence but allowing it. By that I don't mean killing people would be deemed ok just that violence would still exist after the new testament.

Sorry but I highly doubt that, Christians follow the old testament just as much if not even more than the new testament. If the old testament was there just so we could see how life was before Jesus then by your logic the ten commandments as well as God's pact with man would be considered void. Seeing as how it's there just for us to see how life was.

Yes, it had to be altered to make the religion more appealing due to the excessive violence correct? The Koran, has that been revised? If not, then it seems Islam is less afraid of it's past in comparison to Christianity.

Well though the bible has gone from violence to tolerance, it is important to note that when the end is here it will revert back to violence.

Please, you are in no position to be making insults.

FacistFalangistFool - January 26, 2007 11:05 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
The old testament, wouldn't it have been teachings to the people directly from God then? And the Bible is the inspired word of God which includes not only the new testament but also the old one, simply because it emphasizes the role of Jesus as a savior, doesn't mean that only the new testament contains the fundamental teachings of Christianity. The ten commandments were forged in the old testament were they not? It's there that God forged his covenant with man correct? You shouldn't just base everything that happened after the birth of Jesus to be valid and then just rule out all the violent parts you read in the old testament.


Jesus died so that we could break the Ten Commandments, which I am sure both you and I do every day, without the possibility of death. The Qu'ran makes no such gesture. They went from, in the Book of Mecca, stating that people will Sin and must be forgiven, to the Book of Medina, where anyone who sins in the eyes of Islam and anyone who does not believe exactly what Muslims believe must be eliminated. God formed his covenant with man, yes, but as I said humans break that covenant every day. The simple fact of having different religions, just like in Islam, is against God's will. But Jesus in the New Testament places acceptance of these other religions into the Bible. Along with tolerance. The Old Testament, as I said is reference. Absolutely, you must follow the Ten Commandments and such, another fundamental teaching. HOWEVER, the New Testament, as I have repeated to you constantly, does away with harsh punishments for it and allows humans to do as they please without the risk of consequence...something Muslims, if they had their way, would take away. And yes, that last part you mentioned? That is what Christians do. Jews follow the Old Testament (Which is the Torah.) Christians follow the New Testament when Christ was born. The New Testament is more valid thatn the Old To Christians. If it wasn't, we would simply be another sect of Jews. I reiterate: the Old Testament is a source of reference.

QUOTE
Ever read the book of revelations? It's been awhile but it speaks of the end of the world so-to-speak, if you ever read it you would see how violent that is, though I'm not sure which testament it's in seeing as how it predicts the end of the world in extremely violent ways, it looks like the Bible is not done with not only preaching violence but allowing it. By that I don't mean killing people would be deemed ok just that violence would still exist after the new testament.


What is your point? Yeah, the end of the world is gonna be violent. What does that have to do with the conversation? It isn't saying: "GO OUT AND KILL ALL THE NONBELIEVERS!" It simply wants people to be wary of the end of the World. It is the New Testaments way of enforcing what it says: by saying that at the end of the world those who don't sin will be seated at God's right hand. AFter all, the New Testament did away with "You sin, you die" and "kill anyone who sins" (which muslims ADDED on), so that is its way of saying sinning is bad, by presenting humans with a view of the paradise they will recieve by not killing and such. But it never says anything about punishment for them. All sins, says the New Testament, can be forgiven in God's eyes.
QUOTE
Sorry but I highly doubt that, Christians follow the old testament just as much if not even more than the new testament. If the old testament was there just so we could see how life was before Jesus then by your logic the ten commandments as well as God's pact with man would be considered void. Seeing as how it's there just for us to see how life was.

As I said, the Ten Commandments should always be followed. But the New Testament does away with the severe punishments for not following them. That is the respect that I meant it is showing how life was before the New Testament. You seem to be underestimating the intelligence of Christians. Let's look at the Amendments to the constitution. The Amendment that enstated the Prohibition was done away with by a future amendment. Just because that Old Amendment is still technically in the constitution in paper, we don't still follow the Prohibition because the New Amendment says to disregard it. Same goes for the Old and New Testaments. Chrisitans aren't stupid and lacking in common sense. If the Old Testament says one thing and the New Testament says another that tells them to disregard something in the Old Testament, they will do it.

QUOTE
Yes, it had to be altered to make the religion more appealing due to the excessive violence correct? The Koran, has that been revised? If not, then it seems Islam is less afraid of it's past in comparison to Christianity.


The Bible wasn't altered to make it more "appealing". It was altered from the Torah to add Jesus's teachings, which the Torah didn't have. The very teachings which displaced the old violent ones. I just said to you in the other post that the last revisal of the Qu'ran made it MORE violent, rather than less for the Christian Bible.

QUOTE
Well though the bible has gone from violence to tolerance, it is important to note that when the end is here it will revert back to violence.


I already said that reveltaions sais nothing about telling people to kill each other. It just says that at the end of the world humanity and God will have to face satan's armies. So, what does that have to do with killing each other?

QUOTE
Please, you are in no position to be making insults.


Actually that wasn't an insult. But seeing as how you took that tone, its time for me to retaliate.

Let me ask you Nemo, do you go to church every sunday? Did you ever go to Bible study (not CCD they are different things). Have you ever READ the bible ALL THE WAY THROUGH? If you said no about any one of those things, then you cannot talk about the Bible because you just don't know enough about it.


Orborde - January 27, 2007 10:23 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (FacistFalangistFool @ Jan 26 2007, 07:05 PM)
Let me ask you Nemo, do you go to church every sunday? Did you ever go to Bible study (not CCD they are different things). Have you ever READ the bible ALL THE WAY THROUGH? If you said no about any one of those things, then you cannot talk about the Bible because you just don't know enough about it.

What's funny here is that you claim to know enough to talk about what the Koran says.




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