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Title: Freedom OF Religion
Description: Not Freedom FROM Religion


FacistFalangistFool - December 25, 2006 12:03 AM (GMT)
I want your guys opinions on this.

I believe in a nation where we believe cultural diversity is a strength, why do we prevent prayer in schools? Why not encourage it, to have people with different religions see each other pray and interact with each other? Wouldn't it make more sense to allow anyone to display religous scenes wherever they'd like? I don't understand this. It's like everyone can have religious freedom everywhere except anywhere. It really upsets me that to try and insure diversity we restrict our freedoms.

It's freedom of, NOT freedom FROM religion. I want to be able to pray in school. So should a Jew. So should a Muslim.

Our country has always had a very religous base, as can be seen in many old president's speeches. I want it to stay that way.

Nemo Me Impune Lacessit - December 25, 2006 12:21 AM (GMT)
Interesting point, I however believe that religion should not be encouraged in school. Itís just like communism, its seems nice in theory but due to things like human nature it wouldnít work out. It just seems like it would save a lot of time and of violence if kids didnít bring or associate religion into everything. The facts are a lot of people take religion way to seriously which in turn leads to violence occurring. So in an area where there are multitudes of religions expressing them is sure enough to spark conflict, just give it some time. In my mind its better just to avoid it because somebody is going to start something thatís going to snowball into something that should have never occurred in the first place.

FacistFalangistFool - December 25, 2006 12:28 AM (GMT)
Actually not having religion is more like communism than allowing it all. Communism is STRICTLY "everybody is the same" and does not allow freedom of religion to combat possible religious strife, much like we are doing now.

However, by supressing religious speakings from school you breed intolerance. Firstly: You encourage children to believe that religion is bad, because after all if it's not allowed in school it must be bad right? Secondly, you hide children of particular faiths from becoming exposed to other religions, which makes it all the more scary and different from them to experience other religions out of the classroom in the real world.

Children in school who pray together will bond. Despite religious differences, many religions have alot in common. I haver prayed alongside Jews before, and honestly it is an unbelievable experience to know that even though he is of a different religion, God still answers both of us.

It reduces the "my religion is better" factor. Those are just my thoughts. Our current system encourages secularism, which our founding father's would not have liked, and promotes (inadvertantly) intolerance.

Nemo Me Impune Lacessit - December 25, 2006 01:09 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (FacistFalangistFool @ Dec 25 2006, 12:28 AM)
Actually not having religion is more like communism than allowing it all. Communism is STRICTLY "everybody is the same" and does not allow freedom of religion to combat possible religious strife, much like we are doing now.

However, by supressing religious speakings from school you breed intolerance. Firstly: You encourage children to believe that religion is bad, because after all if it's not allowed in school it must be bad right? Secondly, you hide children of particular faiths from becoming exposed to other religions, which makes it all the more scary and different from them to experience other religions out of the classroom in the real world.

It reduces the "my religion is better" factor. Those are just my thoughts. Our current system encourages secularism, which our founding father's would not have liked, and promotes (inadvertantly) intolerance.

In my opinion freedom of religion in schools can't combat religious strife, it only breeds it. Also I wouldn't want something like that interfering with a childís ability to learn, there are numerous other activities that can just as equally stimulate ones brain in the same manner religion can.

Breeding intolerance? Wasn't it you in a previous post who stated that ď"What Islamic countries need is ...a BIG religious reformation where "kill the infidel" isn't in the Qu'ran." Sorry I edited it further in trying to prove a point (just for the record only prove my point.) Just because something isn't allowed in school doesn't necessarily mean it's bad, some schools don't allow the opposite sex, so by your morals the opposite sex is deemed bad. Well I should hope that by common sense kids understand that all things not in school are considered bad. I doubt I hide children of opposite faiths from becoming exposed to other religions, I honestly think the average kid could care less, and if they ARE dying to be exposed to other religions get a pen pal or someone you can talk to through email, or you could just visit the worshiping area of the certain religion your interested in, the internet would be another option.

I would assume that it would increase the "my religion is better factor" by giving children more of an opportunity to compare religions. Well simply because the founding fathers did not encourage it doesn't mean its right either, times are different now than they used to be. For one I doubt that the founding fathers where exposed to religions that were for the most part a radical change from theirs, and freedom of religion isn't barred altogether just in some instances such as public schools. Just like the 2nd amendment, in this time and age, a civilian really doesnít need the right to bear arms when they have law enforcement protecting them. Back then it is to be assumed seeing as the majority of Americans being farmers that guns were used to ward away other animals from such things as a farmers livestock, and if guns had to be used against people it was because there really wasnít an organized form of law enforcement.

Patriot76 - December 27, 2006 03:55 PM (GMT)
When do you propose people pray in school? Do you want to extend the school day just to have another hour of prayer? Wouldn't that just make all schools Catholic schools (or any other religion)? Or even just turn school into a church? Woudn't that just be taking another step back in early America when the church and priests were higher up that schools and government officials? And the fact of the matter is, not many people are THAT religious now and days. I am sure a select few would enjoy the time to pray, but not even christians would enjoy it that much. It's not like Islam where they have to pray at certain hours of the day, every day, no matter what. Nemo is right, times have changed.

FacistFalangistFool - December 27, 2006 05:50 PM (GMT)
Yeah after considering what you guys said, I do agree. I would NEVER condone having designated prayer times, but i suppose that is what it would lead to allowing any prayer in general.

But we are straying from my original point, which is religion being taken out of the nation as a whole. Since we've become more secularized, grades have plummeted and teen drug use doubled. Religion is not a negative influence in our society. When you look back in history, most of our presidents had religious context in their speeches. It is part of American culture and should not be simply done away with because all of a sudden we have 300,000 muslims who say "Allah" instead of "God".

The United States is not a secular nation and never was. Freedom of, NOT FROM, religion, was originally instated because people wanted to be able to put up nativity scene and not be sued.

Some people say "Separation of Church and State prohibits any mention of God in public places." In reality, as I said, our currency has God on it, most of our greatest presidents referred to God, the country as a whole has always referred to him. This should not change. If you want to be secular, fine. But don't interfere with someone else's freedom to express their beliefs in religion.

And by the way, Prayer in school was allowed for 185 years in this country, and nobody ever used to complain.

The Government cannot be a "neutral" in the face of religion. If the majority of the American people are Christian, then THOSE are the people the government should most protect. That is the great thing about democracy, majority rules.

And if a person who believes in God is prohibited by the government from expressing themselves, they are offended. Either way, you will offend somebody. But who is worse to offend, the majority or the minority?

Secular Humanism is becoming the "state religion", and THAT I don't want to see.

FacistFalangistFool - December 27, 2006 05:55 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
It just seems like it would save a lot of time and of violence if kids didnít bring or associate religion into everything.


Religion is a positive, NOT a negative, influence in people's lives. (Or at least it is in most religions. Islam is debatable =P) It is a way of living, not a political philosophy like communism. I think that is the mistake many of us Americans make when dealing with Islam. ALL Muslims follow the same Islamic way of life, and thus all believe the same things. Saying that most Muslims aren't extremists is a farce because, quite simply, the religion they follow is, and the religion is their life.

QUOTE
Also I wouldn't want something like that interfering with a childís ability to learn, there are numerous other activities that can just as equally stimulate ones brain in the same manner religion can.


Religion aids in children's learning experience. It teaches morality, tolerance, and the importance of knowledge being taught in public schools. Since religion was taken out of the school system, grades have plummeted and teenage pregnancy and drug use has increased tremendously.

Patriot76 - December 27, 2006 08:32 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (FacistFalangistFool @ Dec 27 2006, 05:50 PM)

Since we've become more secularized, grades have plummeted and teen drug use doubled. Religion is not a negative influence in our society.

You do make a point. Nothing bad can come of more strict and more widely spread religious guidelines.

Patriot76 - December 27, 2006 08:37 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (FacistFalangistFool @ Dec 27 2006, 05:55 PM)
Religion aids in children's learning experience. It teaches morality, tolerance, and the importance of knowledge being taught in public schools. Since religion was taken out of the school system, grades have plummeted and teenage pregnancy and drug use has increased tremendously.

I could be sounding like a "certain some one" when I ask this, but can you show me any facts that grades have dropped and drugs and pregnancy have gone up due directly to religion?

Orborde - December 31, 2006 05:27 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Patriot76)
Nothing bad can come of more strict and more widely spread religious guidelines.
Except, you know, Iran.

QUOTE
I could be sounding like a "certain some one" when I ask this, but can you show me any facts that grades have dropped and drugs and pregnancy have gone up due directly to religion?
I don't do that just to be a jerk, you know. Consider the request seconded.

QUOTE
Since religion was taken out of the school system, grades have plummeted and teenage pregnancy and drug use has increased tremendously.
While it wouldn't surprise me if that were strictly true, correlation does not imply causation. Drug use, for example, has gone up a lot in the last few decades; however, I'd say that it's probably more due to increasing availability and perhaps even the illegalization of the whole thing (I couldn't tell you whether cocaine use went up after it was outlawed, but it certainly became much more of a "problem" once it was).

A quick Google search on teen pregnancy turns up this map, which doesn't give any clear pointers one way or the other. We see that heavily urban states have the highest teen pregnancy rates, but there isn't a real clear "red vs. blue state" distinction, which you might expect if you figure that Republicans are more religious and that religion -> lower?/higher? teenage pregnancy rates.

Also, according to this Washington Post article, teenage pregnancy rates have DROPPED 30 percent in the last ten years or so. But you could interpret that either way, as well. But here's something a bit more amusing:
QUOTE
Even with all these declines -- in every single state -- the U.S. still has the highest teen pregnancy rates in the fully developed world."
I assume this includes Europe (notoriously one of them "liberal secular fantasylands") - so why is this?

And finally, there's the question of whether it's really a problem. Back In The Day ™ girls tended to be married by, what, age 15? It is only in fairly recent times that teenage pregnancy has become a problem - why is this? But this is getting wildly off topic.

Some of this is probably also due to increasing urbanization, which tends to increase crime rates and magnify other social problems. Or so the anecdotes go.

FacistFalangistFool - December 31, 2006 11:06 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
Percent of all college students, 1993-2003

Drug use  1993  1994  1995  1996  1997  1998  1999  2000  2001  2002  2003   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Marijuana                       
Daily within
last month 1.9 % 1.8 % 3.7 % 2.8 % 3.7 % 4.0 % 4.0 % 4.6 % 4.5 % 4.1 % 4.7 %   
Last month 14.2  15.1  18.6  17.5  17.7  18.6  20.7  20.0  20.2  19.7  19.3   
Last year 27.9  29.3  31.2  33.1  31.6  35.9  35.2  34.0  35.6  34.7  33.7 % 
Cocaine                       
Daily within
last month 0.0    0.0  0.0 % 0.0 % 0.0 % 0.0 % 0.0 % 0.0 % 0.0 % 0.0 % 0.0 %   
Last month 0.7  0.6  0.7  0.8  1.6  1.6  1.2  1.4  1.9  1.6  1.9 
Last year 2.7  2.0  3.6  2.9  3.4  4.6  4.6  4.8  4.7  4.8  5.4 


* Less than 0.05%


QUOTE
The increase in the use of marijuana has been especially pronounced. Between 1992 and 2004 past-month use of marijuana increased from:

12% to 20% among high school seniors.
8% to 16% among 10th graders.
4% to 6% among 8th graders.



Cocaine use among high school seniors peaked in 1985, which had been continually rising since religion was outlawed in schools. It is, however, decreasing now. Probably due to education about thesubject and the dying out of the "hippie" era.

QUOTE
Percent of high school seniors who used cocaine within the last: 
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Year 12 months  30 days* 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1984 11.6  5.8 
1985 13.1  6.7 
1986 12.7  6.2 
1987 10.3  4.3 
1988 7.9  3.4 
1989 6.5  2.8 
1990 5.3  1.9 
1991 3.5  1.4 
1992 3.1  1.3 
1993 3.3  1.3 
1994 3.6  1.5 
1995 4.0  1.8 
1996 4.9  2.0 
1997 5.5  2.3 
1998 5.7  2.4 
1999 6.2  2.6 
2000 5.0  2.1 
2001 4.8  2.1 
2002 5.0  2.3 
2003 4.8  2.1 
2004 5.3  2.3


QUOTE
Percent of high school seniors who think people risk harming themselves with drug use, 1987-2004

Year Marijuana Cocaine LSD Heroin
1987  73.5  88.5  83.8  88.7 
1988  77.0  89.2  84.2  88.8 
1989  77.5  90.2  84.3  89.5 
1990  77.8  91.1  84.5  90.2 
1991  78.6  90.4  84.3  89.6 
1992  76.5  90.2  81.8  89.2 
1993  72.5  90.1  79.4  88.3 
1994  65.0  89.3  79.1  88.0 
1995  60.8  87.9  78.1  87.2 
1996  59.9  88.3  77.8  89.5 
1997  58.1  87.1  76.6  88.9 
1998  58.5  86.3  76.5  89.1 
1999  57.4  85.8  76.1  89.9 
2000  58.3  86.2  75.9  89.2 
2001  57.4  84.1  74.1  88.3 
2002  53.0  84.5  73.9  88.5 
2003 54.9 83.0 72.3 89.3
2004 54.6 82.2 70.2 86.8

Source: University of Michigan, The Monitoring the Future, Press release: Overall teen drug use continues gradual decline; but use of inhalants rises, December 21, 2004


Note the decreasing trend in each. Teenagers think less and less dangerously of drugs.

QUOTE
In 1999 the availability of drugs was reported more often by --

public schools students (38.4%) than by private school students (22.4%)


Public schools have a higher drug availability rate than private schools (which includes religious institutions.) BUT

QUOTE
white students (39.5%) and black students (33.6%)
students residing in suburban areas (39.5%), urban areas (33.7%), and rural areas (34.3%)


White students reported it more than black students, and suburbs more than urban areas, which clears up the issue of social standing dealing with public/private school. It has nothing to do with the money, is what it shows, but what the students are being educated and how they are being educated.

QUOTE
Total number of emergency department drug visits, 1994-02
Year Number
1994 518,880
1995 513,519
1996 513,933
1997 526,818
1998 542,432
1999 554,767
2000 601,563
2001 638,484
2002 670,307


Note the increasing trend in overdoses. In 8 years, the number jumped over 100,000.

Compare all this, however, to the fact that the U.S. government has INCREASED spending to try and rpevent drug use. (FY=Fiscal Year)

QUOTE
Total Federal drug control budget
(in millions)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
FY 2000 final  9,936.6
FY 2001 final 9,467.0
FY 2002 final 10,646.4
FY 2003 final 11,083.3
FY 2004 final 11,867.4
FY 2005 final 12,642.3 
FY 2006 enacted  12,546.6
FY 2007 request 12,655.8


Nopte below that more people now believe that marijuiana should be made legal than in 1978. Also, the "peaks" for all of these statistics were during the hippie era. The all-time lows were during the Reagan-Bush revival of conservatism era of the late eighties/early 90's.

QUOTE
NORC has asked adults (age 18 or older) about legalization of marijuana since 1973. In 2002, 34% believed that marijuana should be made legal, which compared to the peak of 30% in 1978. College freshmen have been surveyed by NORC since 1968. In 2003, 40% of those surveyed agreed strongly or somewhat that marijuana should be legalized, down from a peak of 53% in 1977 and up from a low of 17% in 1989.


QUOTE
Estimated totals of top seven arrest offenses in the United States, 2005

Type of arrest    Number of arrests* 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total arrests*              14,094,200
Drug abuse violations    1,846,400
DUI                              1,371,900
Simple assaults            1,301,400
Larceny/theft                1,146,700
Disorderly conduct        678,200
Liquor laws                  597,800
Drunkenness                556,200


Drug use is the #1 arrest offense in the U.S. in 2005. The government is doing their job better at stopping people, and yet the numbers are either increasing or not decreasing very substatially. Which means there must be a gross increase overall, by simple math.

Source: The U.S. Bureau of Justice


Orborde - January 1, 2007 01:36 AM (GMT)
Your swarms of numbers are indeed impressive, though badly organized (try using the CODE tag to line things up better). However, the link you claim to religion in schools is still pretty tenuous.

You say drug use has been shooting up "since religion was outlawed in schools." What do you mean "religion outlawed in schools"? I don't remember any "Religion Not In Public Schools Act of 1927" passed by Congress; perhaps you can fill me in?

Second, how do you know that religion is even related to drug use? Do you have any sorts of numbers that show a connection between lack of religiousness and drugs? Has the overall "religiousness" of the country (as measured by surveys on religious composition) increased or decreased in the last few decades?

Even if you can show both a decreasing amount of religiosity AND a correlation between that and increased drug use, correlation does not imply causation. Perhaps both effects were caused by, for example, the wholesale rejection of traditional values by the hippies? Maybe the "outlawing of religion in schools" that you speak of was an effect of an overall liberal tilting of the country that also happened to push up drug use, and "putting religion back in" might have no effect on drug use whatsoever!

So drug use has been going up. Well, so has the population, the urbanization level, and all sorts of things that have nothing to do with religion. In all those numbers you present, there is nothing related to religion. So on what grounds do you claim that religion has anything to do with it?

FacistFalangistFool - January 1, 2007 02:19 AM (GMT)
QUOTE
Since the US Supreme Court banned school prayer in 1963:
An additional 550,000 Americans were murdered because the murder rate tripled.
An additional 715,000 men commited suicide because the suicide rate for men increased to five times that for women.
An additional 460,000 Americans died on the roads and highways because of the increase in the motor vehicle fatality rate.
An additional 170,000 men died because incarcerated Americans increased ten fold and caused an additional twenty five million man years of incarceration.
Forty million fellow Americans were aborted.
The divorce rate more than doubled.
The illegitimacy rate quintupled.
SAT scores declined ninety eight points.
Worker incomes by the gold standard decreased four fifths.
Bankruptcies reached a record high of one and a half million.
The percent of men teachers decreased from thirty one to twenty five.
The percent of female judges increased from zero to twenty three and DNA evidence now shows that half of all convictions in the US may be based on false testimony.
The percent of children living in fatherless households increased from six to forty.
The rate of serious child abuse increased twenty fold.
The rate of false allegations of child abuse increased one hundred fold.
Three million Americans died of cancer due to an inexplicible increase in the cancer rate.
Government spending consumed all Personal Savings and left each American household with an average net worth of a negative eighty thousand dollars.

All countries which banned school prayer, compared to countries with school prayer:
Have murder rates up to ten times higher.
Have  incarceration rates up to fourteen times higher.
Have rates of rape up to twenty five times higher.
Have armed robbery rates up to ten times higher.
Performed one hundred percent of all of the executions around the world, thirty seven of whom were innocent men.
Have as many as fifty percent fewer men teachers.
Have as many as forty percent fewer twelfth grade girl students who correctly answer TIMSS math questions.

Within the US, schools which have school prayer and which teach Christian morals and ethics:

Score 50-100 SATmath points higher than the national average.
Have higher SAT Scores than every one of California's 731 public schools.
Cost one third as much per student to operate as public schools.


Source

You may not find this data to hold water because there are no numbers, but I believe them to be correct. however, to connect it all to religion. in 1963 The Supreme Court, in School District of Abington Township, Pennsylvania v. Schempp decreed that:

QUOTE
Because of the prohibition of the First Amendment against the enactment by Congress of any law "respecting an establishment of religion," which is made applicable to the States by the Fourteenth Amendment, no state law or school board may require that passages from the Bible be read or that the Lord's Prayer be recited in the public schools of a State at the beginning of each school day -- even if individual students may be excused from attending or participating in such exercises upon written request of their parents. Pp. 205-227.


The other religion will get "offended" by prayer in schools. Why can't they just be excused again by written parental consent? Oh yeah, they don't give a reason. But anyway, since then:
QUOTE
1963 Divorce Rates started to go up. Hovind's graph shows something very interesting, there is an increase starting around 1960 which then peaks and stabilizes in 1970.  The rate increased from about 2.5 to 5 per 1000. 

1963 is when violent crimes began to increase, you know there has been almost a 1000% increase in violent crimes since Ď63? (Source: Statistical Abstracts of the United States and the Dept. of Commerce, Census Bureau)

The pregnancies are up 550%; most of them are being aborted - murdered.

Unmarried couples living together in adultery has increased 725%. [Source: Statistical Abstracts of the United States]

Teen Suicide Rates Quadruple

1800 - January 1, 2007 08:29 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (FacistFalangistFool @ Dec 25 2006, 12:03 AM)
I want your guys opinions on this.

I believe in a nation where we believe cultural diversity is a strength, why do we prevent prayer in schools? Why not encourage it, to have people with different religions see each other pray and interact with each other? Wouldn't it make more sense to allow anyone to display religous scenes wherever they'd like? I don't understand this. It's like everyone can have religious freedom everywhere except anywhere. It really upsets me that to try and insure diversity we restrict our freedoms.

It's freedom of, NOT freedom FROM religion. I want to be able to pray in school. So should a Jew. So should a Muslim.

Our country has always had a very religous base, as can be seen in many old president's speeches. I want it to stay that way.

I completely agree with you. Especialy the "freedom of, not freedom from religion," I've said that to a few people and it changed their view on this subject.

:)

Nemo Me Impune Lacessit - January 1, 2007 10:50 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (FacistFalangistFool @ Jan 1 2007, 02:19 AM)






[QUOTE]Since the US Supreme Court banned school prayer in 1963:

All countries which banned school prayer, compared to countries with school prayer:

Well, the way I see it there might be a possibility that you are right, but you shouldn't simply base the facts that religion affects those factors. Those countries being economically and socially different from us would also have a different rate in each of those subjects that you posted about. I'm not buying it just yet so I'll continue sticking to my opinions.

Within the US, schools which have school prayer and which teach Christian morals and ethics:

Well I`m going out on a limb to assume that most schools that teach prayer are not public, this way you have a different type of child going to them mostly upper class or upper middle class. It could simply be due to the increase in money enough students (meaning not all rich kids with money are deemed smart) care enough about their grades and have the resources to achieve higher grades with the money they have. This might be enough for an argument it might not be, but I still donít think religion would have all those effects on a population the way your information states it does, there must be other factors involved.


FacistFalangistFool - January 1, 2007 11:21 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
Well I`m going out on a limb to assume that most schools that teach prayer are not public, this way you have a different type of child going to them mostly upper class or upper middle class. It could simply be due to the increase in money enough students (meaning not all rich kids with money are deemed smart) care enough about their grades and have the resources to achieve higher grades with the money they have. This might be enough for an argument it might not be, but I still donít think religion would have all those effects on a population the way your information states it does, there must be other factors involved.


If you will look at a segment from my prior post:

QUOTE

QUOTE
In 1999 the availability of drugs was reported more often by --
public schools students (38.4%) than by private school students (22.4%)


Public schools have a higher drug availability rate than private schools (which includes religious institutions.) BUT


QUOTE

white students (39.5%) and black students (33.6%)
students residing in suburban areas (39.5%), urban areas (33.7%), and rural areas (34.3%)




White students reported it more than black students, and suburbs more than urban areas, which clears up the issue of social standing dealing with public/private school. It has nothing to do with the money, is what it shows, but what the students are being educated and how they are being educated.


As you can see, while I originally agreed with your argument that it must be either money or the education status of public schools, you can see that while public schools have a higher drug availability rate, white suburban students actually reported a higher availability rate than black students and urban students. This would mean that white, suburban upper-class public schools have a higher rate than black, urban public schools. Money is apparently not the problem when you look at it that way and look at a general social standard rate of urban areas and black communities.

Orborde - January 2, 2007 06:10 AM (GMT)
FacistFalangistFool: That site seems pretty specious to me. Every problem in America is now directly linked to the lack of prayer in schools? The amount of data on that page is astounding; however, I can't see it citing any sources except links to its own web site. Also, the graphs look like they were put together by a 15-year-old in 2 minutes for the project he forgot to do last night, and it is often impossible to figure out how on earth the graph supports the point he claims it makes.

( Also, if you click around their site a bit, you may notice that a lot of their opinions are a little far right even for you :) . )

Even assuming that all the data cited is credible (which seems pretty doubtful), correlation does does imply causation. On what grounds do you claim that the Supreme Court ruling in 1963 (Abington School District v. Schempp) has anything to do with all the figures you cite? To put it more succinctly:
QUOTE
Since the ZIP Codes were introduced in the US in 1963:
An additional 550,000 Americans were murdered because the murder rate tripled.
An additional 715,000 men commited suicide because the suicide rate for men increased to five times that for women.
An additional 460,000 Americans died on the roads and highways because of the increase in the motor vehicle fatality rate.
An additional 170,000 men died because incarcerated Americans increased ten fold and caused an additional twenty five million man years of incarceration.
Forty million fellow Americans were aborted.
etc...
The above is absolutely, one hundred percent correct (assuming the statistics are right), as much so as the original quote.

Full analysis of every one of those claimed connections would take BOOKS of writing and research. Since that amount of work is utterly ridiculous, and since the amount of work required to thoroughly shoot down every wild claim that is made is pretty much infinite, I say that, unless you can show a very clear connection, it is safe to assume that school prayer is not connected to any of that. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and I'd say "lack of school prayer significantly increased the cancer rate" is pretty extraordinary.

Now, I just said that I wouldn't go through those claims and try to nail every one of them, but I couldn't resist this one:
QUOTE
All countries which banned school prayer, compared to countries with school prayer:
...
Performed one hundred percent of all of the executions around the world, thirty seven of whom were innocent men.

Iran executes more people than the United States. I doubt that a theocracy bans prayer in schools, but I could be wrong.

Also, to quote Wikipedia from here:
QUOTE
4,661 executions occurred in the U.S. in the period 1930 to 2002 with about two-thirds of the executions occurring in the first 20 years.


I would not be surprised if most of the other stated figures fail under similar scrutiny; however, I don't have time nor reason to go through them all.

Nemo Me Impune Lacessit: Good point about the public vs. private schools. The absolute difference in scores is well documented; however, the advantage becomes less clear-cut when the economic status of the students is taken into account.

Patriot76 - January 2, 2007 09:14 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (FacistFalangistFool @ Dec 27 2006, 05:50 PM)
Yeah after considering what you guys said, I do agree. I would NEVER condone having designated prayer times, but i suppose that is what it would lead to allowing any prayer in general.
But we are straying from my original point, which is religion being taken out of the nation as a whole.
The Government cannot be a "neutral" in the face of religion. If the majority of the American people are Christian, then THOSE are the people the government should most protect. That is the great thing about democracy, majority rules.


Let's just take a step back for a minute here. This is in reply to most of your posts but I decided only to quote part of one to start of.

After Nemo and I said it sounded like you were condoning a designated prayer time in school, you agreed and said you were more concerned with national religion as a whole. Yet in your most recent responses, all facts are religion versus school?

A second point you made (illustrated above) was how the government cannot be neutral in the face of religous turmoil. Let me give you a scenario my very good friend brought up. Say the government decides to intervene in religion and all, but at the same time, decides to legalize gay marriage. Some would say the government has no right to force churches to go against their teaching and force them to marry gay people. Others would advocate it, like you, yet contridict their original point of FREEDOM OF RELIGION. A government ruled religion is not a free one. You went on to say the majority in religion rules and offending the minority is not a big deal. Yet if one religion has what it wants, the others combined are no longer the minority are they?

All the facts you give are condoning a school prayer time. You cannot have freedom of religion in school without sparking tensions and you cannot say "okay pray" to a bunch of school kids. I can gurantee you, at LEAST 50% of the kids in my school would not pray and would rather be home. Will you force all to attend prayer time or make it optional. Once again that are what churches are for. Will you just say

To give it to you straight, religion back in schools would not undo all the problems of the country or even lessen them to the status of 185 years ago. Times have changed.

I don't want facts from 40-80 years ago, which most of your moat relevant are. I want to hear it from you, not a site of facts and stats. What are you trying to say? Are you condoning a country of government run and imposed religion. Who's to say we would not all be grouped into one religion made of many sects and factions believing diffreent things. Remind you of the MIddle East much? You have to take both the good and the bad if you want a change and from my understanding, what you aim for can only bring bad.


FacistFalangistFool - January 2, 2007 10:08 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
After Nemo and I said it sounded like you were condoning a designated prayer time in school, you agreed and said you were more concerned with national religion as a whole. Yet in your most recent responses, all facts are religion versus school?


Patriot76: Well seeing as how this is what everyone is sticking with, I decided to continue arguing for it. I am not saying let's have a prayer period in schools. I have already said that. I am simply stating that RESTRICTION of people who WANT to pray from praying in school TAKES AWAY THE GUARANTEE OF FREEDOM OF RELIGION. Especially in a public, government-owned facility. Our best defense against a predatory religion such as Islam is to have a strong religious base ourselves. Just because most kids wouldn't want to do it doesn't mean it's not right. Since when do kids ever want to do stuff that is right for them? Kids in my school don't say the pledge either. Should we take that away just because nobody sais it?

The U.S. government, by doing this, is blatantly trying to hide the AMERICAN culture--that is, a Christian one. One nation under god could not be more of a tell-tale sign of our religious foundations. In God We Trust is written on our money. We use the Bible in our legal proceedings. Nemo in another post came out and said "The more you try to hide America's past, the worse you make us look." Well guess what, our past HAS ALWAYS HAD RELIGION. And the more people try and hide it, the worse they make it seem. See below: it goes for you too.

Orbode: I see your point about that particular set of data. However, stating that it could possibly be about zip codes is absurd. While political and social events could have caused these numbers rather than the religious base, a clearly valid argument, zip codes? I'm sure you could have come up with a more mature argument. However, let us look at the Constitution's ratification.

Let us look at the first line of the first Amendment to the Constitution:
QUOTE
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
Now clearly, nothing about the supreme court is stated. Granted. However, "or prohibiting the free exercize thereof" is a clear statement: The Government should not RESTRICT RELIGIOUS EXCERSIZE, such as prayer. While this may not apply to private institutions, which clearly can pass their own rules concerning this, PUBLIC DOMAINS, such as schools, should not and cannot restrict religious prayer. However, in now way should they emphasize it.

Freedom of religion was instated to prevent government interference with religion. Let us remember who founded this country: people fleeing religious persecution. The founders of our country did not want to have to hide their religious beliefs. That is one of the great things about this country.

Patriot76 - January 2, 2007 11:39 PM (GMT)
Alright. All I wanted was for you to further explain your views without all the numbers to get in the way of your meaning. It just made you seem more radical then you actually are. I don't think religion spreading and increasing is bad, I was just against ENFORCING religion in school and if you are not emphasising it and only want it as an option, that's fine by me.

Nemo Me Impune Lacessit - January 4, 2007 02:14 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (FacistFalangistFool @ Jan 2 2007, 10:08 PM)

I am not saying let's have a prayer period in schools. I have already said that

Our best defense against a predatory religion such as Islam is to have a strong religious base ourselves.

Just because most kids wouldn't want to do it doesn't mean it's not right. Since when do kids ever want to do stuff that is right for them? Kids in my school don't say the pledge either. Should we take that away just because nobody sais it?

The U.S. government, by doing this, is blatantly trying to hide the AMERICAN culture--that is, a Christian one.

One nation under god could not be more of a tell-tale sign of our religious foundations. In God We Trust is written on our money.
We use the Bible in our legal proceedings.

Orbode: I see your point about that particular set of data. However, stating that it could possibly be about zip codes is absurd. While political and social events could have caused these numbers rather than the religious base, a clearly valid argument, zip codes? I'm sure you could have come up with a more mature argument. However, let us look at the Constitution's ratification.

Freedom of religion was instated to prevent government interference with religion. Let us remember who founded this country: people fleeing religious persecution. The founders of our country did not want to have to hide their religious beliefs. That is one of the great things about this country.

I am not saying let's have a prayer period in schools.

"why do we prevent prayer in schools? Why not encourage it" well does that quote sound familiar? It does look like you were encouraging a payer time.

"Our best defense against a predatory religion such as Islam is to have a strong religious base ourselves."

You say we should have freedom of speech because it would protect us from Muslims. Well for someone who preaches tolerance you seem to not be able to grasp even its basic concept, in fact you seem to be doing it out of fear. Also what is to say that having such a religious base would not produce further "predatory" religions? Sorry but by basically saying that we should have freedom of religion in school simply to protect ourselves from Muslims is political suicide, you want this right for many wrong reasons. (not that I`m to judge what you do is right or wrong)

"Just because most kids wouldn't want to do it doesn't mean it's not right. Since when do kids ever want to do stuff that is right for them? Kids in my school don't say the pledge either. Should we take that away just because nobody sais it?"

Its not that most kids wouldn't want it (even though most kids would probably prefer to have one less thing to deal with) but rather administrates of not only your school but schools all over this nation that have determined that it is in fact better to not have to worry about your religion while your in school, let me ask you something, in your school have you ever noticed that kids of similar race tend to hang out with each other, the segregate themselves knowingly or unknowingly, adding religion into the mix would only further increase that segregation.


"The U.S. government, by doing this, is blatantly trying to hide the AMERICAN culture--that is, a Christian one."


I highly doubt that even though the majority religion wise might indeed be a
Christian one that would make this culture Christian, hey maybe I am wrong here but I try to believe that there is no definite American culture.

"One nation [b]under god could not be more of a tell-tale sign of our religious foundations. In God We Trust is written on our money."

Well God itself might hold different interpretations for different people, some Muslims say that God is just another word for their God too, there could be that possibility that all religions that focus around a God could in fact represent the same entity, which would just go by different titles as cultures changed.

"We use the Bible in our legal proceedings. "

Not true, even though I don't have evidence to prove this nor will I try to, recently a Muslim has actually acquired a government position, where and what position I don't quite recall but during his swearing in process the used the Koran not the bible, this goes to show that times are indeed changing. If you don't believe me go ahead by all means try to verify this and if you do please post it. (I know I shouldnít present this information if there is no evidence to back it up but I simply donít have enough information about the subject to produce a coherent in depth search.)

Orbode: I see your point about that particular set of data. However, stating that it could possibly be about zip codes is absurd. While political and social events could have caused these numbers rather than the religious base, a clearly valid argument, zip codes? I'm sure you could have come up with a more mature argument. However, let us look at the Constitution's ratification.

What Orbode could have meant is that from your data zip codes could have as much as an impact in those subjects as religion can. Your facts are not only outdated, but also very vague, there could be a number of other factors manipulating that data to read out the results you acquired.

Freedom of religion was instated to prevent government interference with religion. Let us remember who founded this country: people fleeing religious persecution. The founders of our country did not want to have to hide their religious beliefs. That is one of the great things about this country.

What you might be referring to could be the Mayflower Compact I don't think most if any of the founding fathers were individuals escaping religious persecution.
Though they might not have wanted to hide their beliefs, its not decidedly so, the Constitution being a living document does hold the power to change.

FacistFalangistFool - January 4, 2007 10:23 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
You say we should have freedom of speech because it would protect us from Muslims.


Ok, first of all, this is not at all what I said. I said that a strong religious base (I said nothing about schools in this particular subject) would counter a more militant religious base such as Islam. This is already showing its negative side effects. If people have a choice between a weak, secular, "non-cultured" as you would say, nation and a strong Islamic identity, they would pick the strong. More Americans have converted to Islam AFTER September 11th than at ANY point before in U.S. history. Don't believe me?

QUOTE
Also what is to say that having such a religious base would not produce further "predatory" religions?


Oh yeah, because new religions are just popping out all over the place these days. First of all, Christians are in no way "predatory". The Christian religion has grown since the middle ages and no longer do we try and kill for our beliefs. Whether or not we should is another story. However, it is VERY possible to dillute Islam by having freedom of religion. Can't you see that Islam and Christianity are in fact VERY much alike, and share alot of the same principles! If we could get more Muslims who come to this country to realize this, we would, in fact, be lessening their radicalism. It IS possible for this to happen! But we can't do that by letting their religion trample over us without having any ourselves. That is what is happening in Europe right now.We need the RESPECT of the Muslims, and we cannot achieve this with secularism, hippy-ism and the current media arrangement.

QUOTE
let me ask you something, in your school have you ever noticed that kids of similar race tend to hang out with each other, the segregate themselves knowingly or unknowingly, adding religion into the mix would only further increase that segregation.


My school is VERY diverse, and people of different races do segregate at times because that is who they are more comfortable with. However, they ALL have friends of other races. In no way is there "segregation". I have indian, black, spanish, egyptian, white, haitian, and mexican friends. And none of us look at each other badly. And there are multiple religions in my school already. There is NO religious segregation at all. Nobody even judges by religion, prehaps sometimes by race, but never religion. Wasn't it you in a prior post who said "oh, kids would have enough common sense to realize just because religion is not allowed in school doesn't mean its bad." Well, I hope the kids of our country have enough common sense to realize that isn't bad because it's IN school either. Keck you and me are kids ourselves. If you saw another person praying in school would you honestly get offended? I'd hope not. If you would, then you are more biased than the person praying themselves.

QUOTE
I highly doubt that even though the majority religion wise might indeed be a
Christian one that would make this culture Christian, hey maybe I am wrong here but I try to believe that there is no definite American culture.


Now before you said this quote, Nemo, I respected your opinion. If you DARE sit here and tell me that my country, our country, has no culture, then I will sit here and tell you that we need prayer even more to make one. First of all: THIS COUNTRY DOES HAVE A CULTURE. It's called the American culture, and I'm proud of it. Where do you think the term "americanized" comes from? The great thing about our culture is the fact that so many people who used to HATE each other in the old world can come here and become neighbors. That our people have NEVER been afraid to defend themselves to prevent tyranny, and as such has had a never-ceasing democracy. That our people have always rose up when called to defend their country and their family with pride and patriotism (that is, before the "hippy" era). Not many other countries can brag all three of those things. That is the American culture. And Islam threatens this. Everywhere is the old world for them, and they take their "old world" hate with them wherever they go. Which is why Americanization of radical islam would be beneficial to us. The only way to achieve this, is like I said, a strong religious base ourselves to counter theirs. NOT going over there preaching democracy! And our definate culture is a Christian one, and denying it such as you are is what makes people think we do not have one. Just because our church and government aren't intertwined does not mean that the religion does not exist and has not influenced this country for decades.

QUOTE
Well God itself might hold different interpretations for different people, some Muslims say that God is just another word for their God too, there could be that possibility that all religions that focus around a God could in fact represent the same entity, which would just go by different titles as cultures changed.


"Allah" is God in Islam. Not God. "God" is Christianity's God. Sure at the end of the day it is the same person, but it does not say "In Allah We Trust", it says "In God We Trust." Trust me, NO Muslim will mistake that. Every religion calls their god by a different name for a reason: To distinguish between them.

QUOTE
Not true, even though I don't have evidence to prove this nor will I try to, recently a Muslim has actually acquired a government position, where and what position I don't quite recall but during his swearing in process the used the Koran not the bible, this goes to show that times are indeed changing.


So you are telling me that we have never used the Bible in legal proceedings? That is what you meant by saying not true to my statement that "We use The Bible in legal proceedings." We always have used it, we always will. Just because one exception occurs does not mean we never use the Bible anymore. That is why Islam is such a threat, and America needs to stop being blind to it. That Christians and Christianity is being displaced by Muslims. I'm sure Jews have had positions in Government before and have NEVER asked for a Torah to read off of. Islam is not afraid to use our religious and cultural weaknesses as a launching point for their campaigns. It is so easy for them to walk in and change stuff to suit their beliefs because no one is willing to defend their culture/beliefs in this country anymore (or, as you would say, "lack of culture".)
QUOTE
Though they might not have wanted to hide their beliefs, its not decidedly so, the Constitution being a living document does hold the power to change.


I have yet to see an Amendment which decrees anything otherwise. Until then, the constitution says we should not and can not restrict religious freedoms.

Patriot76 - January 4, 2007 10:40 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Nemo Me Impune Lacessit @ Jan 4 2007, 02:14 AM)
hey maybe I am wrong here but I try to believe that there is no definite American culture.


I know this is a little off topic, but when people say this it infuriates me.

first of all, by saying that America has no culture, you are only supporting FacistFools idea to spread religion to increase this culture that you claim is non existent, whether you relize that or not.

Secondly, I hate it when people say America has no culture and I cannot phathom why you "try to believe" there is no culture. Saying this about the strongest and best country in the world is both insulting and ignorant. I thinkl I finally see what FacistFool is talking about. With most Americans having a mentality like yours, we appear to have know culture becuase America's own inhabitants do not believe in one. More recently, American music and offshoring businesses has influenced other countries towards AMERICAN CULTURE. To bring up something you used before in past American history, it was not only American farmers, but christian missionaries of America that converted and led to the annexation of Hawaii and most current US states/territories. Whether you see America as a melting pot (which it is) or an entire new culture on its own (which it also is) is up to you. The coming together of all of immigrant and ethnic America combined with the "traditional" America makes up the America culture. To answer your question that I quoted, rhetorical or not, you ARE wrong! Have you forgoten about baseball, apple pie, truth, justice, and the American way?

Nemo Me Impune Lacessit - January 5, 2007 02:42 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (FacistFalangistFool @ Jan 4 2007, 10:23 PM)
Ok, first of all, this is not at all what I said. I said that a strong religious base

Oh yeah, because new religions are just popping out all over the place these days.

First of all, Christians are in no way "predatory". The Christian religion has grown since the middle ages and no longer do we try and kill for our beliefs. Whether or not we should is another story. However, it is VERY possible to dillute Islam by having freedom of religion.

Can't you see that Islam and Christianity are in fact VERY much alike, and share alot of the same principles!

My school is VERY diverse, and people of different races do segregate at times because that is who they are more comfortable with. In no way is there "segregation".

There is NO religious segregation at all. Nobody even judges by religion, prehaps sometimes by race, but never religion.

If you saw another person praying in school would you honestly get offended? I'd hope not. If you would, then you are more biased than the person praying themselves.

Now before you said this quote, Nemo, I respected your opinion. If you DARE sit here and tell me that my country, our country, has no culture, then I will sit here and tell you that we need prayer even more to make one.

The great thing about our culture is the fact that so many people who used to HATE each other in the old world can come here and become neighbors.

That our people have NEVER been afraid to defend themselves to prevent tyranny, and as such has had a never-ceasing democracy.

Which is why Americanization of radical islam would be beneficial to us. The only way to achieve this, is like I said, a strong religious base ourselves to counter theirs.

Just because our church and government aren't intertwined does not mean that the religion does not exist and has not influenced this country for decades.


"Allah" is God in Islam. Not God. "God" is Christianity's God. Sure at the end of the day it is the same person,

but it does not say "In Allah We Trust", it says "In God We Trust." Trust me, NO Muslim will mistake that. Every religion calls their god by a different name for a reason: To distinguish between them.

So you are telling me that we have never used the Bible in legal proceedings? That is what you meant by saying not true to my statement that "We use The Bible in legal proceedings." We always have used it, we always will. Just because one exception occurs does not mean we never use the Bible anymore.

That is why Islam is such a threat

I'm sure Jews have had positions in Government before and have NEVER asked for a Torah to read off of.

It is so easy for them to walk in and change stuff to suit their beliefs because no one is willing to defend their culture/beliefs in this country anymore (or, as you would say, "lack of culture".)

I have yet to see an Amendment which decrees anything otherwise.

"Our best defense against a predatory religion such as Islam is to have a strong religious base ourselves."

You said that didn't you? Well it sure does look like you wanted to "defend against" Islam by having a stronger religious base.

No. what I meant was that non "predatory" religions could turn "predatory"(your choice of words not mine) by exposing kids to religion it would let them compare religions this as you said increases tolerance, but it is also true that due to human nature those same kids could also feel that their religion is superior. *sigh* hopefully you can see where I'm going with this...if not just say so and I will clarify. Believe me, what I say I say because I've actually seen instances where this has occurred.

Hm...well then how would you explain hate crimes against certain religions?
I'm sure that there were hate crimes which involved a Christian going against other religions, while that could be a poor example I believe it does indeed serve my purpose. Some people take religion VERY seriously enough to do such things as hate crimes, it's better to just avoid that altogether, in school at least.

Just because I might see it that way doesn't ensure the rest of this nation will also.

How is that possible that there is no segregation at your school? You just said it happens at times.

The reason for this could be that there isn't enough emphasis put on religion to cause religious segregation. If you started prayer time in school who is to say that people who pray the same way wouldn't pray together? Thatís basic segregation is it not? People tend to make friends through similarities not differences. And by kids judging by race and placing certain cultures into certain stereotypes as they judge by race isn't that also segregation? But according to your terms no segregation exists at your school. (which is something you have just contradicted twice.)

No, honestly I really wouldn't mind, but just because I don't who is to say that there eventually would be certain people that do mind? And believe me your in no position to be calling other people biased. Before I comment what do you mean when you said that the person praying is biased.? (choose your words very carefully this time)

*sigh* no offense but sadly I could care less what you thought of my opinion. That's why there are opinions, because it's ones own way of thinking; I'm terribly sorry my way of thinking is not like yours. And no, simply because their is no definite culture doesn't mean there is not a culture, I meant that the American culture is not etched in stone nor while it ever be, it is a mixture of all people and all cultures who have set foot on our soil regardless of who they were so itís always changing. That being said I also mean that the religion sense of this culture is also not set in stone, so our culture isn't necessarily Christian. Why? why would prayer be the thing that would give us a sense of culture, why can't it come from other things not just religion?

Simply because some people choose to come here doesn't mean that they would leave their issues with other people. In my opinion one of the best ways to unify this nation is if all people coming here could leave their issues at the door, true it does happen, but its also true hate crimes still exist in our nation.

Democracy? If you honeslty belive that then why involve prayer in our public schools if the majority of the student body either doesn't care or would rather not have one more thing to deal with. If you took a poll in your school out of kids wanting relgion, kids not wanting it, and kids simply not caring do you honestly belive that the majority of students would favor paryer? If you don't and you want to involve kids in prayer even after the majority has spoken then you should drop this subject all together. If kids want to be exposed to different relgions there are mutliple other ways to do it, school nessarly doesn't have to be an option. Start a club dealing with other relgions, you wouldn't have it on school grounds of course because it wouldnt be allowed. But just see how much kids come that alone will prove my point.There are much better ways to be exposed to other relgions other than school.

Do you belive that "radical islamists" can acutally be Americanized? Not the homeless or the mentally handicapped who are used as sucide bombers in Iraq but the true heads of the anti american insurgents that organize hit and run and ambush tactics ON OUR FELLOW AMERICANS, I think they wouldn't dream of being Americanized in the first place. How would having a strong relgious base Americanize them? It at best would just allow us to understand them better.

I never said that the Christian relgion doesn't exist, nor have I said that it hasn't influneced this country.

If you belive that Allah isn't just another word what one culture sees as God, meaning that God and Allah aren't the same person , then why say at the end of the day it is the same person? As usual you contricdict yourself.

What if God could just be used as the universal name some religions use to refere to their God, then it pretty much would mean everyone would have a different interpretation of this.

I never said that the Bible was never used in legal proceddings, I even said times are changing meaning that we did use the Bible in legal preoceddings just now we also use the Koran. And no we donít "always use the Bible" a muslum would use the Koran. Where have I said that we will never use the Bible again??? And no this is not the one exception, even if it were, it would defeat your argument since you obvisously belive that we "will always" use the Bible, well look at that, you contradicted yourself again.

If you think Islam is a threat then stop preaching tolerance.

I'm not sure here, but is the Torah a Jewish version of the Bible? If it is then there must be something about the Bible that Jewish people would accept.

No one is willing to defend their beliefs huh? Well isn't that what we're doing right now? And show me where I said "lack" of culture.

Maybe it's because people hold the first ten Amendmets as so high and mighty so they refuse to change them, In my oppinion due to different times it would be better to change. Amendments like the right to bear arms really dont hold as much weight as they used to.

And on a personal note to you, you are either tolerant of other religions or your not, and if you are then donít say that Muslims can't use their relgion to change things, and if you are not tolerant of other religions then stop saying that we should expose kids to different religions in school. You seem to be going back and forth a lot, just chose a side and stick to it.










Nemo Me Impune Lacessit - January 5, 2007 02:49 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Patriot76 @ Jan 4 2007, 10:40 PM)


first of all, by saying that America has no culture, you are only supporting FacistFools idea to spread religion to increase this culture that you claim is non existent, whether you relize that or not.

Secondly, I hate it when people say America has no culture and I cannot phathom why you "try to believe" there is no culture. Saying this about the strongest and best country in the world is both insulting and ignorant. I thinkl I finally see what FacistFool is talking about. With most Americans having a mentality like yours, we appear to have know culture becuase America's own inhabitants do not believe in one. More recently, American music and offshoring businesses has influenced other countries towards AMERICAN CULTURE. To bring up something you used before in past American history, it was not only American farmers, but christian missionaries of America that converted and led to the annexation of Hawaii and most current US states/territories. Whether you see America as a melting pot (which it is) or an entire new culture on its own (which it also is) is up to you. The coming together of all of immigrant and ethnic America combined with the "traditional" America makes up the America culture. To answer your question that I quoted, rhetorical or not, you ARE wrong! Have you forgoten about baseball, apple pie, truth, justice, and the American way?

Well first, if you read my most recent post (other than this one) you`ll see me clearify some things.

For the record however I never said America has "no culture" that was something FacistFool thought that I said.



FacistFalangistFool - January 5, 2007 05:55 AM (GMT)
QUOTE
Believe me, what I say I say because I've actually seen instances where this has occurred.


I've seen instances in which the exact opposite occured. A Jewish friend of my fathers and a Muslim friend went to one of those congregation things with my dad where anybody who believes in God at all can go. After that day, Fareed (The Muslim) COMPLETELY changed his views of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. He was never "extremist" per-se, but he was highly critical of both.

And Religion breeds tolerance, not intolerance. One of the most important laws in Christianity is to forgive and forget and to be accepting of other religions. Islam is the only religion NOT like this, and by introducing the younger Islamic generations into our culture and "americanize" them, we can greatly reduce their extremism simply by exposing them to a very similar religion that is not extremist. Nothing can get rid of old world hatred like good old Americanism; only problem is currently, Americans are more worried about making sure Islamic culture is in tact rather than altering Islamic culture to be less radical. But THAT is in the name of "freedom of religion", right?

QUOTE
You said that didn't you? Well it sure does look like you wanted to "defend against" Islam by having a stronger religious base.


Saying it could protect us and saying it can help counter, which is the actual thing I said, are two completely different things. Let's look at it in terms of military strength rather than religion. A world power who's power rests in its army means a large, strong army is necessary. Now, if another nation wishes to be able to counter threats from this more powerful nation, a large, powerful military is needed. Without it, the smaller nation will fall easily below the power's might. The same can be said about cultural power. Islam currently has a VERY strong cultural power: A desire to fight for what they believe, a strong religious base, and a GLOBAL Muslim identity, not confined to individual countries. In order to counter that, the U.S. needs not a strong army as it did in the prior scenario, but a strong culture. (Or, more specifically, religious base, since we are dealing specifically with religion.) Even to put it on secular terms, we NEED a strong culture to be able to not fall to a stronger one. Military might can only be countered by military might. Cultural/Religious strength can only be countered by cultural/religious strength/motivation. If we don't, much like in the military, we could quite simply be "conquered" so to speak, with our culture fading away to a pan-islamic sharia law state. YOU may not advocate prayer in schools, and I may be able to live without it; but God knows, if Muslim culture began to take griphold, there would be no stopping it.

QUOTE
I'm sure that there were hate crimes which involved a Christian going against other religions, while that could be a poor example I believe it does indeed serve my purpose. Some people take religion VERY seriously enough to do such things as hate crimes, it's better to just avoid that altogether, in school at least.


I meant predatory in the sense of conversion and seeking of proselytes. What you say is correct; in ever religion there are violent people. But Christianity has been "neutered" so to speak. On the whole, Christianity no longer seeks massive conversions and has abandonded the "convert or die" thinking with "other religions are ok" thinking.

QUOTE
How is that possible that there is no segregation at your school? You just said it happens at times.


People of a certain race would, of course, generally like people of that race more to be closest friends. However, branching out occurs constantly and NEVER have I seen someone turn down someone else's friendship by race. People have numerous friends of seperate races. In that sense, segregation never occurs.

QUOTE
And by kids judging by race and placing certain cultures into certain stereotypes as they judge by race isn't that also segregation?


No. That's called stereotyping. You can stereotype someone and still be their friends. Segregation is the seperation of people by race or ethnicity, which nobody does in my school. People have friends with their own race, of course. But they also have good friends in other races.

QUOTE
No, honestly I really wouldn't mind, but just because I don't who is to say that there eventually would be certain people that do mind? And believe me your in no position to be calling other people biased. Before I comment what do you mean when you said that the person praying is biased.?


Well apparently you think everybody who prays and is religious is biased, because apparently in your eyes no two religions can co-exist ever in a social environment. I was using this statement as a sort of sarcasm at you constant reference to the people of religions never getting along. Ever. Sure, there are extremists, as there always will be. The best way to reduce the extremism is to get people educated and exposed to the subject. And you just proved my point. Every American has that thought: "Well, just because I don't who is to say that other people won't!!" In reality, if you don't do something chances are PLENTY of people don't mind, most of them actually. The people who DO mind are the wrong ones.

QUOTE
*sigh* no offense but sadly I could care less what you thought of my opinion. That's why there are opinions, because it's ones own way of thinking; I'm terribly sorry my way of thinking is not like yours. And no, simply because their is no definite culture doesn't mean there is not a culture, I meant that the American culture is not etched in stone nor while it ever be, it is a mixture of all people and all cultures who have set foot on our soil regardless of who they were so itís always changing. That being said I also mean that the religion sense of this culture is also not set in stone, so our culture isn't necessarily Christian. Why? why would prayer be the thing that would give us a sense of culture, why can't it come from other things not just religion?


Let's disect this sentence by sentence. 1. Well then why are we having this discussion and you are fighting so hard for them? 2. Indeed, that is why they are opinions; and thank you for your apology, it did offend me. 3. There is no such thing as an always changing culture, and Americans need to get that out of our head; what was etched in stone? the Ten Commandments; what are our Laws based after? oh yeah, the Ten Commandments; and by your own logic every single time a mexican crosses our border our culture needs to adapt to them? I don't think so. It goes vice-versa. Cutlure doesn't adapt to people; people adapt to culture. 4. Have you ever heard God reffered to as anything else in any presidential speech? Do we have a national holiday for Islamic holidays? (Yes, for Jews we do. But they were instated post-WWII after the horrible feelings about what Germany did to them. And there is only one.) Sure it's not etched in stone, but it sure as heck is written in permanent marker all through our past. This generation wanna be the first to change that? It is a course for disaster. 5. It does! That is the beauty of culture! But people repeatedly deny how great of a country we are; one of the greatest hits a few years back was "American Idiot". I mean, some Canadian guys says America sucks, so it must right? It goes to show how weak a culture can become without the religious element. However, without the other elements religion falls apart too---look at France pre-revolution in the late 18th century. They had a state religion, but their culture was faultering due to despising of the king, hunger, and just plan lack of anything cultural. What did you get? The bloodiest revolution in history to that date ELIMINATING RELIGION COMPLETELY! All parts of the "Culture Triangle" need each other. And lack of one weakens the others; weakening of all can, and will, lead to revolution. If you have strong cultural bases economically and culturally (linguistically (english)), but a weak religion, if a revolution comes it can only bring stronger religion. Just as weak economy and culture but strong religion the change brought about strong economy and culture but no religion. And who do you think would hop on the bandwagon? Islam.
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In my opinion one of the best ways to unify this nation is if all people coming here could leave their issues at the door, true it does happen, but its also true hate crimes still exist in our nation.

Amen, and most do. However, if we can get the younger generations to leave those issues through education and experience, even if their parents dont leave it at the door, is that not sowing the seeds for future prosperity?
QUOTE
Democracy? If you honeslty belive that then why involve prayer in our public schools if the majority of the student body either doesn't care or would rather not have one more thing to deal with.

What am I not stating clearly? NOBODY SHOULD BE MADE TO PRAY, BUT IF SOMEBODY WANTS TO THEY SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO, which currently they don't. As stated in the second amendment, congress should not pass "any law restricting any religion...or the practice (prayer) thereof." Read it in my prior post.
QUOTE
If you belive that Allah isn't just another word what one culture sees as God, meaning that God and Allah aren't the same person , then why say at the end of the day it is the same person? As usual you contricdict yourself.

Christians believe in one God. As such, we believe that ALL religions are actually praying to the same God whom they all see as a seperate entity to show the difference in religion. Don't talk about certain aspects that apparently you don't understand. However, I may not have stated that clearly. And I apologize. But as I said, they have different names because, quite simply, they are different religions. When you hear "Allah", you know it is Islam. God, christianity. Do you say "toy" or "juego" (spanish). They mean the same, but are reflective of two entirely seperate cultures.
QUOTE
I even said times are changing meaning that we did use the Bible in legal preoceddings just now we also use the Koran. And no we donít "always use the Bible" a muslum would use the Koran.

And you are ok with that? That is what I'm talking about. In our "golden days", people would have said "To hell with you, you use the Bible like the rest of us!" Not any more, apparently. Screw American culture, it's more important that a Muslim gets his Koran so he doesn't get in a hissy fit. Like I said, have Jews ever been opposed to Using the Bible? Or ANY other person put on trial from seperate religions for that matter?
QUOTE
If you think Islam is a threat then stop preaching tolerance.

Yes, they are a threat. And I never thought I would hear myself saying this, but the only way to beat a threat like Islam is through preaching tolerance. Not from us, no, but from them. If we could get a strong enough tolerant Muslim identity here in the U.S., that could be enough to springboard to other parts of the world. To help catalyse the tolerance process in the Muslim world. Right now, we are too tolerant, they are not tolerant enough. Both sides need to pull back from the extremes: Us less tolerant of an apparent cultural upheaval, them more tolerant of other religions, other cultures and other countries. Only in the middle can there be balance.
QUOTE
No one is willing to defend their beliefs huh? Well isn't that what we're doing right now? And show me where I said "lack" of culture.

After 9/11, would you have registered for the army ready to kick some butt? Would you have readily landed on Normady beach on D-Day without hesitation or thought of turning back? Would you stand up and say "No, that's wrong! No women should have to weak headscarves!" or sit meekly and allow it as "religious freedom" (they use religious freedom for all the wrong reasons.) Would you allow "In God We Trust" to become "In religious entities of all religions we trust" or say "Yeah, that's about right. Hell, I don't believe in God anyway!" Would you stop a neigbor from burning a U.S. Flag? Would you have stood up on flight 93 and stopped that plane? I don't care how well you can argue about whether religion is allowed in school. I'm talking about what matters: Family, Culture and Country. Family I have no doubt you would defend as any real human would...but culture and country I'm beginning to doubt. And yes, your country and culture is a "belief". You can "believe" in your country and culture.
QUOTE
I'm not sure here, but is the Torah a Jewish version of the Bible? If it is then there must be something about the Bible that Jewish people would accept.

Jews don't even believe Jesus existed. He is the primary part of the Christian Bible. What is there to accept? We have more in common with Islam, who accepts that Jesus actually existed at least.
QUOTE
Maybe it's because people hold the first ten Amendmets as so high and mighty so they refuse to change them, In my oppinion due to different times it would be better to change. Amendments like the right to bear arms really dont hold as much weight as they used to.

If you promote changing the Bill of Rights, then you promote changing our nation's history. The backbone of our culture and what allowed it to blossom is written in those ten amendments. And personally, I'd trust myself with a gun over law enforcement. Criminals will get weapons anyway, with or without gun laws. The question is, will YOU have that gun to protect you when he breaks in and you can't get to the phone?
QUOTE
And on a personal note to you, you are either tolerant of other religions or your not, and if you are then donít say that Muslims can't use their relgion to change things, and if you are not tolerant of other religions then stop saying that we should expose kids to different religions in school. You seem to be going back and forth a lot, just chose a side and stick to it.

I am not intolerant of Islam. They are intolerant of us. I consider them threatening and a threat due to this fact, but I am in no way intolerant. I just do not want us to sit feebly as Islamic culture overtakes our own, which it very well may in the future. Oh, but you say our culture changes. So apparently, you wouldn't mind every women wearing headscarves and Jews being treated as second-class citizens because the first ever majority-muslim congress declares one of your "changeable to meet the times" first ten amendments invalid, delcaring freedom of religion only applies to those who believe in Allah. Trust me, that is not too farfetched.

To sum it up, I have always stuck by my side. I am very tolerant, and consider Islam a threat to our cultural and religious (to me anyway) sanctity because THEY are intolerant, and the only way to combat this is through education of tolerance to Islamic generations here, which could possibly spread a widespread islamic evolution into a modern, less-militaristic religion. Why is it so hard to see that?

Nemo Me Impune Lacessit - January 8, 2007 01:07 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (FacistFalangistFool @ Jan 5 2007, 05:55 AM)
I've seen instances in which the exact opposite occured.

And Religion breeds tolerance, not intolerance.

One of the most important laws in Christianity is to forgive and forget and to be accepting of other religions.

Islam is the only religion NOT like this, and by introducing the younger Islamic generations into our culture and "americanize" them, we can greatly reduce their extremism simply by exposing them to a very similar religion that is not extremist.

Islam currently has a VERY strong cultural power:

Even to put it on secular terms, we NEED a strong culture to be able to not fall to a stronger one.

If Muslim culture began to take griphold, there would be no stopping it.

NEVER have I seen someone turn down someone else's friendship by race. People have numerous friends of seperate races. In that sense, segregation never occurs.

No. That's called stereotyping.

You can stereotype someone and still be their friends.

Segregation is the seperation of people by race or ethnicity, which nobody does in my school. People have friends with their own race, of course. But they also have good friends in other races.

Well apparently you think everybody who prays and is religious is biased,

apparently in your eyes no two religions can co-exist ever in a social environment. I was using this statement as a sort of sarcasm at you constant reference to the people of religions never getting along.

The best way to reduce the extremism is to get people educated and exposed to the subject. And you just proved my point. Every American has that thought:

"Well, just because I don't who is to say that other people won't!!" In reality, if you don't do something chances are PLENTY of people don't mind, most of them actually. The people who DO mind are the wrong ones.

Let's disect this sentence by sentence. 1. Well then why are we having this discussion and you are fighting so hard for them? 2.

and thank you for your apology, it did offend me.

There is no such thing as an always changing culture,

by your own logic every single time a mexican crosses our border our culture needs to adapt to them? I don't think so.

It goes vice-versa. Cutlure doesn't adapt to people; people adapt to culture.

4. Have you ever heard God reffered to as anything else in any presidential speech?

This generation wanna be the first to change that? It is a course for disaster.

It goes to show how weak a culture can become without the religious element.

All parts of the "Culture Triangle" need each other.

And lack of one weakens the others; weakening of all can, and will, lead to revolution. If you have strong cultural bases economically and culturally (linguistically (english)), but a weak religion,

if a revolution comes it can only bring stronger religion.

NOBODY SHOULD BE MADE TO PRAY, BUT IF SOMEBODY WANTS TO THEY SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO,


Christians believe in one God. As such, we believe that ALL religions are actually praying to the same God whom they all see as a seperate entity to show the difference in religion. Don't talk about certain aspects that apparently you don't understand.

When you hear "Allah", you know it is Islam. God, christianity.

That is what I'm talking about. In our "golden days", people would have said "To hell with you, you use the Bible like the rest of us!" Not any more, apparently.

Screw American culture, it's more important that a Muslim gets his Koran

Or ANY other person put on trial from seperate religions for that matter?

Yes, they are a threat. And I never thought I would hear myself saying this, but the only way to beat a threat like Islam is through preaching tolerance.


Right now, we are too tolerant, they are not tolerant enough. Both sides need to pull back from the extremes:


After 9/11, would you have registered for the army ready to kick some butt?

Would you have readily landed on Normady beach on D-Day without hesitation or thought of turning back?

Would you stand up and say "No, that's wrong! No women should have to weak headscarves!" or sit meekly and allow it as "religious freedom"

Hell, I don't believe in God anyway!"

Would you stop a neigbor from burning a U.S. Flag?

Would you have stood up on flight 93 and stopped that plane?

I don't care how well you can argue about whether religion is allowed in school. I'm talking about what matters: Family, Culture and Country. Family I have no doubt you would defend as any real human would...but culture and country

If you promote changing the Bill of Rights, then you promote changing our nation's history.

And personally, I'd trust myself with a gun over law enforcement.

Criminals will get weapons anyway, with or without gun laws.

The question is, will YOU have that gun to protect you when he breaks in and you can't get to the phone?

I am not intolerant of Islam.

I just do not want us to sit feebly as Islamic culture overtakes our own, which it very well may in the future.

Oh, but you say our culture changes. So apparently, you wouldn't mind every women wearing headscarves and Jews being treated as second-class citizens because the first ever majority-muslim congress declares one of your "changeable to meet the times" first ten amendments invalid, delcaring freedom of religion only applies to those who believe in Allah. Trust me, that is not too farfetched.

To sum it up, I have always stuck by my side.

I am very tolerant, and consider Islam a threat to our cultural and religious (to me anyway) sanctity because THEY are intolerant,

and the only way to combat this is through education of tolerance to Islamic generations here, which could possibly spread a widespread islamic evolution into a modern, less-militaristic religion. Why is it so hard to see that?hat?

Huh, well if you wanna get into details, which I was avoiding, I'll share the main points of one of the many times I've seen the exact opposite from what you have just stated. In this case not only did the Muslims views simply grow more radical the Christian's views also grew anti Muslim, and not only that this spread to at least twenty other people veering from anti Muslim to anti Christian, I'd much rather try to avoid seeing that occur again, as the whole situation was complete blown out of proportion.

No, If history shows us anything, as I was trying to say, it shows both more often leaning towards intolerance.

While that might be a law, it has been misused or simply ignored countless times not only throughout history but to this VERY day. If you claim it is to be accepting of other religions, then you would accept Islam for all that it is and not try to "Americanize" it. By accepting it wouldn't you have to accept the good with the bad, instead of trying to change it to make it all good?

Ah, but in here lies the problem, it's not American Muslims that tend to be extreme radicals, but the Muslims in lower class countries that rise up in violence. Americanizing the Muslims here would not do much in terms of preventing radicalists, and I highly doubt that you would venture forth to try to Americanize Muslims in other countries, and if you are then good luck with that, hopefully you wont find yourself on one of those hostage tapes you see these days.

I firmly believe that most of the burnt of Islam is because everyone seems to be making such a big fuss about it, especially here, its not anywhere near as bad as it is in other countries. By giving it such a strong emphasis you seem to only be increasing its power. True it has spread more in comparison to previous times but its so called strangle hold is more mental than anything else.


A strong culture? I believe we already have that, it's the ability to adapt that makes us strong, we accept the good parts of other cultures, it's not us succumbing to it because there is a difference, its us adapting to it. I`ll explain more later on. However I believe that our culture can not be overcome that easy; call it foolhardy but I believe that as a nation we stand more united now more than ever before, and in 20 years I believe it will only get stronger.

I doubt that a religion in this day and age could gain enough ground to completely change life so dramatically in America. No I have faith in our culture, it, as I said adapts it wont be overcome by Islam anytime soon or in the near future. For a
fascist, you over estimate the power of the Islam culture while you under estimate the power of the American culture. I know this day and age we need to be cautious there's no need to blow this whole thing out of proportion.

No, that's discrimination not segregation, and just because people have friends of different races doesn't mean that there is no segregation, as long as you walk through the hall way of your school and you see kids of the same race or "click"
grouped up there will be segregation.

No, judging by race is more discrimination than anything else more or less that leads to and is a by product of segregation.

Do you really do that? Now correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't it be hypocritical if someone judged by stereotype while at the same time preached tolerance?

You don't knowingly have to segregate, likewise just because you have friends of other races doesn't mean you don't segregate. Again I bring this up, you say there is no segregation at your school, then can you walk down the hallways of your school and not see people of the same race separate into personal "clicks"? If you say no your either blind or lying, or possibly both.

No, I don't think people that pray are biased I think your biased.

How can you even say that? There is a world outside of school you know (well hopefully you know) Oh don't worry about the sarcasm bit I use it on you all the time, I'll enplane that as I go on too.

Yeah? Well if people are so concerned about it then why not go and grow more tolerant on their own time instead of using school time? How do you even propose this would be accomplished? (I'm not talking about you whispering a prayer just before a test or anything) A designated time slot; perhaps another period, or a prayer during each period; because I know people aren't going to stay after school or go early in the morning just to pray. Kids have better things to do than to add that extra time simply for something they seem to have no interest in, in the first place. If you said any of the above options for regulating prayer in school consider the time being wasted incorporating it into the daily schedule, if kids could choose another elective I don't think they would choose prayer, not only would it draw time away from school, it could make the day longer and cost more money. All for what? A vain effort to bring prayer into the lives of people that would rather do something else? Go ahead like I suggested take the poll, if the majority would have prayer in school, (still don't know how you would work that out) I will completely take back every thought I've had dealing with this post.

Well prove me wrong then, create the poll, distribute it around your school, and lets see what happens.

Fighting hard? The only reason I post on this topic is to see if you can convince me of your beliefs.

Oh, see that apology was sarcasm, I honestly don't know how you think I should
be sorry just because I have different views than yours. But I do suppose I should apologize for my actions comments. (not that I'm going to edit them at this moment) However this whole thing has been blown out of proportion. In the continuation of the rest of this post I will due my best to control my emotions.

True always changing might be a bit extreme, but isn't it true that when someone brings their culture to this country they experience and take from our culture, and in turn we also get from their culture, no matter how smalle the change is I belive that it is there.

No I didn't say it needs to adapt to them I think there is a mixing of cultures which would cause adapation, it's not forced as you put it but rather an affect of them living here.

People created culture, we're not slaves to it as you make us out to sound.

The reason for that? All if not most presidents that have spoken about God in a presidentail speech have been of Christain, or Catholic backgrounds, why would someone use the term Allah as their word for God, if by their relgion the word for God would be God. Example: Say I'm Chirstain, I'm not going to say "hey let's go worship Allah today, my word for God would be God, if I were muslim that would be another story.

Why? If this is the first generation who would infact change it then I would be interested in the changes they would aspire to. Hopefully you don't think that by changing what the founding fathers wrote that we are doing something wrong, they made it so the Consitution would change did they not? I'm sure if the situation arose they would have wanted it to change. They seem to belive in America so why can't you. There's been no evidence to support that a change to the first ten admendments would indeed prove disastorious.

I doubt it would be relgion as the sole factor determineing a countrys culture.


Your acting like we don't allow relgion anywhere. We do have relgion just step outside of school when your looking for it. Just because public schools don't have relgion your acting like your "Culture Triangle" is going to fall apart.

Okay here's something that ticked me off, you think just because we don't have enough relgion in school that this will lead to a revoltion, HIGHLY DOUBTFULL just because we don't have relgion in school doesn't mean we don't have a strong relgious base, it's as strong as we choose to make it, school shouldn't have to be the critical factor determining that. It's okay to be catatious but you serisould underestamate the American people.

You just said beforehand, did you not, that the revolution in france wiped out relgion, that being said a revotuion doesn't nessarly have to bring forth a stronger relgion.

Okay, here I'm not talking about the kind of prayer you say right before a test I'm talking about actual prayer, how persay would they find time to pray? What if the child choose to prayer right before a test, by your standards that child should be able to, and as long as he/she wants, this not only takes time away from the test, but lowers other children's abiltiy to learn, if the teacher gave out the test anyway then the student praying doesn't have the same amount of time to take the test as the other kids, by giving them the right to prayer when and how they see fit in school you supersde atthority from the teachers, this undermines school altogether.

Don't speak of things I dont understand huh? You just agreed with me when you said we belive that all religions are praying to the same God whom they all see as a seperate enitiy. You basiclly summed up what I had said just clearer.

Exactly, the most common way they are used are to differantuate relgions.

Hmm...if that is what you want us to resort to, it doesn't sound like your preaching tolerance. Why do those days have to be so good, more rights were taken away rather than given back then anyway.

No, American culture is what tolerates a Muslim getting his Koran as you might say it.

Well I'm not sure if anyone from other relgions would use a bible if they thought highly of their relgion.

You preach tolerance huh, then wouldn't that mean allowing them to use the Koran in trails and such? I mean that could equally de radiclize them and that would be further "Americanizing" them by allowing them to share some of the basic rights other people share. The only reason the image of the Bible in things like court cases is so hard pressed into your mind is because back then when that whole thing was started, everyone shared pretty much the same relgion there were no other Bibles like the Koran in America and there were most likely a slim to none ratio of religions such as Islam.

So by us allowing muslims to pray in school also how would that be us getting less tolerant?

Yes, though that wouldn't be my exact choose of words.

Yes, had it come to that I would proudly serve my country.

That is a part of their relgious freedom though, if they don't want to wear them then don't be that relgion, not all women out there mind wearing that stuff.
If the women stood up for themselves and choose their rights over their relgion on the other hand then that's another story.

That is sarcasm right? Knowing you I can't tell.

Of course if you are not patriotic to this country then you dopnt belong here ( by this I mean things like bruning flags so don't try to use that against me)

Hell yeah I would have stood up

So by me not wanting relgion in school your saying that I don't support my counrty, kid you get more radical everytime we talk. Go ahead doubt me, but if we're ever put in one of those situations, then let our actions speak on behalf of our words.

See, exactly what I mean, your one of those people that belive in the high and mightyness of the Bill of Rights, enough so when the situation called for it you would not change them.

AH, but would you trust your child with your gun, personally I wouldn't take that risk.

Okay Criminals can still get drugs but theyre illegal.

NO the question is would your kids still be alive by placing a gun in your house when someone chooses to break into your house. Your more likely to kill or hurt someone from your own familiy than you are to shoot a robber.

Then don't complain about allowing them to use their Koran.

Again here you are underestamating the Ameican people.

Yeah culture changes and your a fool for not thinking otherwise, it was you who agreed when I said it wasn't etched in stone, your interpretations of the future of this country are also highly radical, change on such a grand scale like that could not happen anytime in the near future. See I could sink to your level and throw in my own radical ideas, but I'd rather not waste the time and effort.

No you actually haven't in a post on this very topic you changed your oppinion, on allowing relgino only to rechange it in a further post.

So your willing to sink down to their level? There are plent of other ways to approch this but you choose to stick to the most radical, I hope you never enter politics you'd be another John Kerry and most likely end up creating more hate against the U.S. by your radical ideas.

Very true, infact the best thing you've said so far, however there are other ways to teach this tolerance other than school. To sum up what I want to say, the only reason I posted here was to see if you could get me to incorporate your belifes, seeing as how that time has passed and said result has not occured, I think I've said all I wanted to say on this matter for right now, enjoy posting here again if you will but for now I'm done with this topic. And I am sorry if I did offend you in anyway by expressing what I belived (that being sencere)

Patriot76 - January 8, 2007 08:51 PM (GMT)
In the interest of all who go on this site, I would like to try and act as a mediator before either one of you (Nemo and FacistFool) write another 10,000 word essay. Let's agree that you two disagree, you each have the right to express your own cultural beliefs. If you two weren't so radical about your issues and look back on all your posts in this topic, you don't actually disagree that much, just severely on very few issues. Like I said, you each have a right to express your cultural beliefs, but if there's one thing I know, it is that politics and religion should NEVER mix. They are two different animals that you both readily interchange, the reason you seem to quarrel. I believe it is time to put this topic to rest. Can I get an Amen?

FacistFalangistFool - January 8, 2007 10:12 PM (GMT)
I am quite sick of this topic. I'll Amen to that. However, I just want to clarify one thing. Religion in its actual dogma should never merge with religion. And it will remain that way in this country, so long as this curretn status quo is maintained. I just don't want what happened and is currently happening in Europe to happen here; their economy is in shambles and their Muslim population is growing at an alarming rate. And the stronger Islam gets, the weaker the traditional European culture gets, because unlike America, their cultures dont have the spirit to fight back. I just don't want to see this happen in America. And I feel that the only way to prevent this is by adapting Islam to us. In europe it is happening the other way around. Call me xenophobic, call me what you may, but it seems to me this is the only logical explanation tom stopping Islamic extremism, because they tried appeasing Islam and giving them the Koran in trials and doing all of the stuff you promote, Nemo, and look at how it turned out for them ;). By the way patriot and Nemo, you needed to take the religion thing out of the Highschool scenario. I was talking more about primary schooling (elementary school) where the impressionable young minds of this children could forever be left with the thoughts that "you know what, that jew wasn't as bad as my parents said." By the time Highschool comes along, it is too late for any of what I was saying anyway.

And I'm not a fascist. I just couldn't think of a name ;).

Patriot76 - January 8, 2007 10:19 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (FacistFalangistFool @ Jan 8 2007, 10:12 PM)
By the way patriot and Nemo, you needed to take the religion thing out of the Highschool scenario. I was talking more about primary schooling (elementary school) where the impressionable young minds of this children could forever be left with the thoughts that "you know what, that jew wasn't as bad as my parents said." By the time Highschool comes along, it is too late for any of what I was saying anyway.


Well clarifying that in the beginning would have helped considering you too refered to your Highschool's religion and it's effect. Now let's put this topic to rest.




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